was: [SlimDevices: Beta] Multi library/user support ?

[kdf]

On 16-Nov-07, at 11:47 PM, erland wrote:

>
> I know there are some, like the SqueezeNetwork integration and new
> skin
> in 7.0, but to be frank, the functionality from a user perspective
> it is
> pretty much the same today as it was about 2 years ago when I first
> saw
> SlimServer.

That's just insulting. Pandora, Slacker, Rhapsody, Transporter, Jive
extensive CLI rework, gapless mp3, wma voice, ogg, unicode support,
Slim Devices Picks plugin,
RadioIO, web UI's for RSSNews, Podcasts UI, Live365, async HTTP to
avoid blocking audio due to
web access, direct streaming, special fields in the DB to make
LazySearch Plugin fit with SS/CC better,
IR learning/blasting support, network diagnostics support, dual
display support, the massive flood of
effort JUST for Hebrew rtl support, the Nokia770 skin(!!!), Flac
Picture tag support...etc. It's all readily available
in changelogs and to just ignore it and claim that its "pretty much
the same" is just tunnel vision. Just because it isn't for YOU
doesn't mean it isn't there from a 'user perspective'. Even this
entire forum is just a tiny piece of the picture. This doesn't even get
into the hundreds of things that users used to notice, that are no
longer being noticed while they simply
listen to music.

Adding features indefinitely is not what it's about. After all the
bitching I've had to read about features
at the cost of stability, to now have to defend stability at the cost
of features when features are still there, is just
crap.

You want plans, look at Bugzilla. You'll see targets there. You
want to add features, look at Bugzilla. You'll see
the requested features there. You want to ask about what to do, I'll
say look at Bugzilla, or add what you want
and post the patch. It does tend to pay off if you happen to be
looking for a change of job. Contributors seem
to have a tendency to end up with slimdevices.com addys.

Many aspects of SlimServer are still remaining bits of the original
architecture. Big features show up with fanfare,
but are often implemented via workarounds to deal with the old code.
Cleaning up takes a LOT longer, and the result
isn't fanfare, but a simpler, faster user experience for more users.
It may be a good thing that you see fewer changes,
as this means you have not hit some of the previous roadblocks that
others have.



Further discussion should go to dev forum, so I've rerouted this post.

-kdf

[erland]

On 16-Nov-07, at 11:47 PM, erland wrote:
That's just insulting. Pandora, Slacker, Rhapsody, Transporter, Jive
extensive CLI rework, gapless mp3, wma voice, ogg, unicode support,
Slim Devices Picks plugin,
RadioIO, web UI's for RSSNews, Podcasts UI, Live365, async HTTP to
avoid blocking audio due to
web access, direct streaming, special fields in the DB to make
LazySearch Plugin fit with SS/CC better,
IR learning/blasting support, network diagnostics support, dual
display support, the massive flood of
effort JUST for Hebrew rtl support, the Nokia770 skin(!!!), Flac
Picture tag support...etc. It's all readily available
in changelogs and to just ignore it and claim that its "pretty much
the same" is just tunnel vision. Just because it isn't for YOU
doesn't mean it isn't there from a 'user perspective'. Even this
entire forum is just a tiny piece of the picture. This doesn't even get
into the hundreds of things that users used to notice, that are no
longer being noticed while they simply
listen to music.

I'm sorry, I guess I exaggerated my thoughts a bit and was a bit too generic, as you say I should have said "from MY perspective as a user" and not just "from a user perspective". I hardly use the internet functions in SqueezeServer at all, so that probably explains why I haven't noticed the huge changes in 6.5 and 7.0.

I really appreciate all work that have been done, so if you or anyone else felt insulted I do apologize because that was not my intent.

Anyway, no point continuing this discussion, there already is a thread regarding the roadmap request in the developers forum, so any further discussion regarding that could continue there.

Even though you might consider bugzilla to be a roadmap, I don't.

Here is the roadmap thread:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=40292

[kdf]

On 17-Nov-07, at 2:03 AM, erland wrote:

>
> I really appreciate all work that have been done, so if you or anyone
> else felt insulted I do apologize because that was not my intent.
>

I don't feel insulted. If it was about that, I'd have gone away a
long time ago.
> Anyway, no point continuing this discussion, there already is a thread
> regarding the roadmap request in the developers forum, so any further
> discussion regarding that could continue there.
>
ok....if you say so.

> Even though you might consider bugzilla to be a roadmap, I don't.
>
you should. it's the best and most reliable things going. Granted,
I've only been around for 5 years, so I could be full of crap, but
hey, what do I know?
Then again, I've also been reading a lot about open source project
management and it's a good learning experience.

> Here is the roadmap thread:
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=40292

wow....with so much activity, how can one catch up?
sorry, it's not a roadmap thread. Get off the personal agenda,
please. You could do so much better.

-kdf

[Philip Meyer]

I don't want to get into an argument, but thought that I'd add my current feelings on this matter.

Over the last month, whilst I have returned to the bleeding edge development branch, I have seen a lot of effort put into the software. This is great. I don't really care too much what features have been added - it's just nice to see that the product is still being supported - and people have the best of intentions.

I have tried to help the best I can by testing things that I wouldn't normally use. It takes me ages to do even minor updates the the simplest of plugins, as I don't know Perl at all, so I can't really help too much with patches to the official software.

There are things that I'm not too bothered about, but I appreciate that other users do, and therefore who am I to judge whether they are good decisions or not. Eg. Many people have cried out for a better UI, and whilst I would like to see native OS UI's (something more like Moose) instead of yet more WebUI skins, I can't argue that the work has been beneficial for the masses.

>From memory, I believe that SC7.0 has generally followed the roadmap. I guess that there's only so much that can be put into public roadmaps - there may be some work being done to support future products. I was a bit surprised to see an official lastfm scrobbler plugin come out of the blue, when we had a plugin that worked in 7.0 and was being maintained. Looks like there will be an official LastFM plugin too in the future. And support for yet another US-only internet radio provider. I don't think any of this was/is in the roadmap.

It's important to keep plugin developers in the know - James for example may have been a little put out that his work on the plugins may now be redundant.

There are certain things that would be really nice to support officially, as it may open up further avenues to the community. For example, some basic DB support for multiple music folders to scan, and multiple personas which plugins could then make use of, would be a step in the right direction, opening up better support for pluign developers. I think it's perfectly reasonable for things like smart playlists to be implemented as plugins, but some back-end support would make the architecture nicer. For example, a hook to be able to pick a third-party plugin playlist as an alarm clock source, rather than have to apply patches to the source code or write another alarm plugin. But people have different opinions.

It would be nice to see the roadmap maintained, as much as is feasible from the Logitech developers.

Phil

[kdf]

On 17-Nov-07, at 2:39 AM, Phil Meyer wrote:

>
> It would be nice to see the roadmap maintained, as much as is
> feasible from the Logitech developers.

and it would seem that you've seen this in action.
it's a redundant action for the most part.
-kdf

[erland]

On 17-Nov-07, at 2:39 AM, Phil Meyer wrote:

>
> It would be nice to see the roadmap maintained, as much as is
> feasible from the Logitech developers.

and it would seem that you've seen this in action.
it's a redundant action for the most part.
-kdf

I guess it depends on the detail level of the roadmap, if the road map is very detailed I agree, then bugzilla is as good as the roadmap.

However, what I would like is a roadmap that shows "the big picture" while I still can look in bugzilla for all the details.

[kdf]

I guess it depends on the detail level of the roadmap, if the road map is very detailed I agree, then bugzilla is as good as the roadmap.

However, what I would like is a roadmap that shows "the big picture" while I still can look in bugzilla for all the details.

The "big picture" is there. stability and format format support are always high on the list and always in progress.

if you look at the 7 spec, there are things there that are not yet implemented but still desired. Of course, with the masses jumping in to implement a part of the roadmap, it easy to understand that it may be hard to find something to do.

I should think something will be updated AFTER 7.0 is released, as has been the pattern.

As for announcing certain features, I think it's rather obvious that Logitech cannot make public certain features as they involve legal partnerships and contracts. Third party individuals can do things that companies cannot without making sure all of the permissions are handled.

-kdf

[erland]

The "big picture" is there. stability and format format support are always high on the list and always in progress.

if you look at the 7 spec, there are things there that are not yet implemented but still desired. Of course, with the masses jumping in to implement a part of the roadmap, it easy to understand that it may be hard to find something to do.

I should think something will be updated AFTER 7.0 is released, as has been the pattern.

As for announcing certain features, I think it's rather obvious that Logitech cannot make public certain features as they involve legal partnerships and contracts. Third party individuals can do things that companies cannot without making sure all of the permissions are handled.

-kdf

There are two things I would like to be visible in the roadmap:
- The approximate release date for a specific SqueezeCenter release
- The major functionality or goal with the release

I would also like to roadmap to describe the future preferably at least 12 months ahead, but at least 6 months.

I understand that certain features can't be mentioned in detail in the roadmap, either because they would make it visible when Logitech is about to release new hardware or because they can't be announced before agreements and contracts with other companies are in place. However, I do think that these thinks often can be expressed in a more generic way without telling all the secrets.

The release dates is pretty much impossible for anyone to see from bugzilla, unless you have detailed knowledge of the SqueezeCenter code and complexity of the specific bug reports. The target release for the bugzilla reports are also often set pretty soon before the release. As an example I think the first time 7.1 was mentioned in bugzilla was a few weeks ago.

The main reason I like to have to roadmap is to plan my plugin development work. For example, I'd hate to spend a lot of time implementing Jive support during the next month if Jive isn't going to be used in SqueezeCenter until 7.1, which might be released 2008 Q4. However, if Jive is about to be used already with 7.0, which might be released at end of november 2007, it feels a lot more urgent.
Of course, I also understand that the Jive feature might be something that is hard to put in the roadmap without also saying that Logitech is going to announce a new remote hardware at the same time. But in that case it would at least help to know if 7.1 is about to be release 2008 Q1 or 2008 Q4 and let me guess if Jive if going to be part of 7.0 or 7.1.

You have made it pretty clear that you think a roadmap like this isn't needed, so I think we will probably just have to agree that we disagree on this matter. I really hope that Logitech could see the need for a roadmap, but in case they don't I'll just have to accept that fact.