WAV tag editor. Experts on Wave files only, please

[Georgie]

Hello Robin
Thank you for your answer. Please let me just explain my way from .flc to .wav - I don't want to change the subject of this Thread.
I know the relation between .wav and .flac - Files. I just wonder why the .wav File plays different on my SB3 than the same .flac File. As an example: the 2nd movement of the string quartet op.135 from Ludwig von Beethoven, interpreted by the Alban Berg Quartett, sounds as .flac File more metallic, with less air around the instruments and with less deep, than the .wav-Version.

I would be happy if the .flac Files sound the same as the .wav Files and I see all the advantages of the .flac Files. I already have built up my music library with .flac Files (FLAC 1.1.3), but was not really satisfied with the sound quality. So I tuned my SB3 (new power supply, AES/EBU-Interface), but I still missed the "aaahhhh" - feeling. Then I tried the .wav Version (I stored them before compressing to flac) - and now I am happy with the sound. These are my experiences, and I cannot explain them and would like to investigate more in this topic, perhaps in another part of the forum.

Georg

[CCRDude]

@Craig: could you upload a screenshot of the first page in that hex editor? I would need the exact structure inside the data. As far as I could find out so far, the are probably the following fields?

IART Artist
IGNR Genre
INAM Title
IPRD Album
itrk Track Number

bobkatz@digido.com: inserting themselves in the header without rewriting the full file is only possible if the ripper did include enough padding while writing the file in the first place. If no space for metadata was reserved at the beginning, it has to fail. ogg and flac are similarly bad usually, only ID3v2 for mp3s does support reserved padding quite well.

[Robin Bowes]

Georgie wrote:
> Hello Robin
> Thank you for your answer. Please let me just explain my way from .flc
> to .wav - I don't want to change the subject of this Thread.
> I know the relation between .wav and .flac - Files. I just wonder why
> the .wav File plays different on my SB3 than the same .flac File. As an
> example: the 2nd movement of the string quartet op.135 from Ludwig von
> Beethoven, interpreted by the Alban Berg Quartett, sounds as .flac File
> more metallic, with less air around the instruments and with less deep,
> than the .wav-Version.

I've not got that performance. I have the Talich, Juilliard, and Vegh
Quartets. I'm listening to the Vegh Quartet at the moment.


> I would be happy if the .flac Files sound the same as the .wav Files
> and I see all the advantages of the .flac Files. I already have built
> up my music library with .flac Files (FLAC 1.1.3), but was not really
> satisfied with the sound quality. So I tuned my SB3 (new power supply,
> AES/EBU-Interface), but I still missed the "aaahhhh" - feeling. Then I
> tried the .wav Version (I stored them before compressing to flac) - and
> now I am happy with the sound. These are my experiences, and I cannot
> explain them and would like to investigate more in this topic, perhaps
> in another part of the forum.

Are you streaming flac natively so it is decoded on the SB?
Are you streaming wav natively so it is decoded on the SB?

You might like to try decoding flac on the server and streaming as wav -
some folk have reported that they believe that to sound better than
streaming as flac and decoding on the SB.

R.

[Pale Blue Ego]

ID3v1 on WAV files is a kludge, but if it works for your studio application, then fine. Transporter can use it, and that's all you need. If you ever need more (ID3v1 is pretty limited as far as Genre choices and length of data fields), then you can compress to FLAC and use the more flexible Vorbis tags.

[Craig]

@Craig: could you upload a screenshot of the first page in that hex editor? I would need the exact structure inside the data. As far as I could find out so far, the are probably the following fields?

No problem

[bobkatz@digido.com]

Believe it or not, iTunes does a pretty decent job of tagging. So much so that I've ripped our huge SFX libraries using iTunes as AIFFs. ProTools can read all tag info before importing into a session. Works well...

Unfortunately, I do not normally have an AIFF workflow, so it would be an extra step to use Itunes as the tagger, and to be frank, I do not trust the data-integrity of Itunes. It uses Quicktime behind the user's back to sample rate convert on the fly if the file sample rate is not identical to the interface. I would feel confident converting a file to AIFF externally and just using the tagger options in Itunes. I may try that just to see if Slimserver sees the genre tag more comfortably.

[MARC38]

Maybe I'm reading these posts late ...
I put all my CDs (about 250) into .wav and TAG the files using Tag&Rename.
It works perfectly, and I was very surprised that limited French classical editions were found from CDDB database.
But now ... I'm looking at .flac format or MP3 for the car (now all radios have USB Keys). But I did not find a way to keep the TAGs from the .wav files when compressed into .flac or MP3.
So I probably had to start directly with .flac : this advice seems to be given many times in this forum !

[Wombat]

I use an old application for transcoding: frontah detects ID3 Tags in wav files and copies them to the target mp3 or flac if you want.
For tagging wavs you also may use another old application MP3 Renatager. The added Tags are schown in Squeezecenter.
http://www.renatager.de/
http://home.vxu.se/mdati00/frontah/

Edit: Both freeware. i use frontah mostly for mirroring my flac folders to mp3 folders, much easier then scipts. Just enter a target dir.

[Nonreality]

After a long search and struggle I have been able to prove that Slimserver DOES read the ID3v1 tags from Wav files and find a tag editor that works with them. And that yes, WAV files do support these tags. Contrary to another post in this forum, which is untrue.

I am a professional audio mastering engineer and I use the Transporter to play back and demonstrate uncompressed 24 bit/96 kHz, 48, and 44.1 K files in the mastering studio, without having to access the computer, it's a great tool. AIFFs do not support ID tags to the best of my knowledge, so it has to be WAV. Converting to a lossless format is unnecessary and time consuming in my business, so I sought out to see if the original 24 bit WAVs could be tagged.

After googling and testing about 25-30 tag editors out of a gazillion, so far I've only found ONE that will read and write ID3 tags that Slimserver/Transporter will read and use. There are none I've found so far for the Mac that work with WAVs, only MP3s. So I've restricted my search to the PC.

A program from Samu Software (unlikely name) Professional MP3/WAV TAG Editor :

http://mural.uv.es/samecues/progs.htm

The site is in Spanish, but don't be afraid, the editor is in (mostly) English, and it works. Scroll down to "Professional MP3/Wav" editor and download.

Has anyone found ANY other tag editor that truly works on WAV files (16 and 24 bit) which has more features? It would be nice to have the features of Media Monkey. Media Monkey APPEARS to edit ID3 tags in WAVs, and it consistently displays them, but Slimserver only occasionally reads them, even after a full library scan. However, the tags edited in "Samu" are instantly read and available in Slimserver without needing a library scan. Just go to the Music folder and click on the file and from that point on the artist, genre, and other tags have been added to the Slimserver Library. Very nice.

Anyone have anything to add, like a great editor that actually works with Wavs?


Bob Katz, Digital Domain. Orlando Florida. www.digido.com

While it's true that you can get wav files tagged with ID3.1 tags to work with SC it's still not the best tag. Also you don't know what other programs it will work with. The real thing would be to get ID3v2.3, or vorbis tags to work and work with all programs. Probably not going to happen. If you want some real info on this I would go to hydrogenaudio.org for this kind of thing as your post said experts. By that right of course I shouldn't be posting but I have to ask how the volume wars got started with great engineers like yourself on the scene? Did you just get pushed aside by the record companies? It would be interesting reading to hear it from the experts.

[Pascal Hibon]

My music library is completely wav as well. The files are tagged with ID3v2.3 tags and it works just fine. Although there is no defined standard when it comes to tagging wav files, it is possible to tag wav files. The tagging method uses a RIFF chunk to maintain the wav file’s integrity. In the RIFF chunk, which is called “id32”, there is the ID3v2.3 tag.
I use iTunes for ripping and then I run a custom application on my library that writes the tags to the wav files – the information is read from iTunes. It does not rewrite the complete wav files; it just adds the RIFF chunk to the wav file.
Many people on this forum are opposed to wav files and pro flac. But it is all relative. Just make up your own mind about it. If you want to use wav then go for it. It works and your wav files stay intact. Wav is uncompressed CD quality and it can be easily converted to something else if the future requires it. Bandwidth, storage space, etc, is not an issue at all. I have two SB3’s running wireless – runs flawlessly.

For those interested, I have attached a wav sample that contains a ID3v3.2 tag.