There must be a better way for this forum to operate.

[atkinsonrr]

A while ago, P.Floding started a thread called something like "Moderator where are you?". In it, he makes the following point:
"The biggest problem is the SNR (signal-noise ratio). It is really easy to do wisecracking and post the 50th variation on the same old joke and get a number of your buddies to chime in with their own variations. Soon you have 10 postings like that for every one serious posting. How is anyone going to take the time to read through all this to extract any useful information?
On top of that, when all the wisecracking has a theme that says that audiophiles are idiots (more or less), how friendly will that feel for anyone coming here with their questions?"

Unfortunately, the thread in which P posted the above went down the drain in exactly the same way that P was pointing out. As a result, I feel the need to start this thread just to say I agree with P on the problem and on the effect.

I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring points of view.

I can say posting in this forum feels like trying to have a friendly game in a playground where a handful of self-congratulating bullies have taken over the "turf". I choose not to offer my questions, thoughts or insights much in this forum. Not because I'm insecure in my ability to take care of myself on the playground and not because I am insecure in my beliefs and feelings. I choose not to participate because I simply dont feel it offers me enough benefit for the cost in time or emotional energy I would expend.

I think the only people who would keep coming back to such a playground are those that feel they must prove something to the bullies. Indeed, for this reason, it seems that without intervention, this forum is fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

[totoro]

A while ago, P.Floding started a thread called something like "Moderator where are you?". In it, he makes the following point:
"The biggest problem is the SNR (signal-noise ratio). It is really easy to do wisecracking and post the 50th variation on the same old joke and get a number of your buddies to chime in with their own variations. Soon you have 10 postings like that for every one serious posting. How is anyone going to take the time to read through all this to extract any useful information?
On top of that, when all the wisecracking has a theme that says that audiophiles are idiots (more or less), how friendly will that feel for anyone coming here with their questions?"

Unfortunately, the thread in which P posted the above went down the drain in exactly the same way that P was pointing out. As a result, I feel the need to start this thread just to say I agree with P on the problem and on the effect.

I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring points of view.

I can say posting in this forum feels like trying to have a friendly game in a playground where a handful of self-congratulating bullies have taken over the "turf". I choose not to offer my questions, thoughts or insights much in this forum. Not because I'm insecure in my ability to take care of myself on the playground and not because I am insecure in my beliefs and feelings. I choose not to participate because I simply dont feel it offers me enough benefit for the cost in time or emotional energy I would expend.

I think the only people who would keep coming back to such a playground are those that feel they must prove something to the bullies. Indeed, for this reason, it seems that without intervention, this forum is fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

Hmm... from my recent experience, P Floding himself is a self-congratulating bully who thinks he can arbitrate what audiophilia is, and the mockery occurred as a way for people to deal with someone who was behaving like a troll.

I tried to engage in a reasoned discussion with him on a parallel thread that went down in flames, and it didn't work. I could have walked away, but then I would have let his bullying succeed, so I didn't. He was uncivil almost from the very beginning, and squealed loudly when I finally lost patience and snapped back.

Just goes to show how different people's perceptions can be, and how hard a job moderating this kind of forum can be.

[pfarrell]

atkinsonrr wrote:
> I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring
> points of view.

It is really simple. Folks interested in the topic have to make it
a good place to discuss the topic.

This is true of all open forums, mailing lists, usenet groups, etc.

> it seems that without intervention, this forum is
> fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

Yes, but to quote Pogo: we have met the enemy and he is us.
There is no one to intervene. We have to clean up our act, or
it will die. I've seen it happen many times over the 16 years or
so that I've been playing with usenet, Compuserv, etc.

The simple fact is that no moderator can exist. It is too much work,
and too subjective for any sane person to volunteer. No one at
SlimDevices is going to spend the time, they all have jobs to do.

So as Marion Barry said about another topic, get used to it.
Clean up or die.

Of course, one could argue that expecting some 'moderator' to straighten
things out is impractical and itself a waste of bandwidth. These days of
widespread broadband, cable, DSL and FIOS, the concept of wasting
bandwidth may be obsolete, but those old timers think it was and is
a valuable concept. Tragedy of the commons and all that.

Audiophile are probably more susceptible as a group than many others,
because by definition, audiophiles care about things most people do not
consider important. Most care passionately, often with a religious
fervor. Which obviously opens a door for wise cracks, jokes, and insults.

Some of it may even be justified. We believe that Bose sound systems
sound terrible. We believe that all amplifiers do not sound alike. We
believe that as good as a SqueezeBox sounds, it could sound better.
And we may believe that even the Transporter is not the end of the line,
so we can think of mods and hacks and a Transporter 2.

-- altho I personally believe that speaker positioning and room
treatment are much more important than most of the tweaks that
audiophiles obsess over.

So clean up your act. This means you. Everyone. Period.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimse...msoftware.html

[tomjtx]

A, I just have to respond to this.
I dont think there was a 10 to 1 ratio PRIOR to P's thread. A lot of the humor was a reaction to his "apparent" lack of humor and what seemed to me to be a call for censoreship.
I think many people dished out more humor in response which I personally feel was very appropriate .
P also seemed to assume that most the humorists were objectivists which is not the case for me.
It seems to me P was offended by some previous postings and possibly lumped all the jokesters together. I dont think anyone was denigrating audiophiles.But we sure were laughing at them. By definition that means I was also laughing at myself .
I look on that as healthy rather than a problem.
I strongly feel that people shoud be able to post what they want and communicate how they want. Humor, sarcasm, irony or stone cold seriousness.

P has sent a few barbs my way in response and that's fine with me (as long as he doesn't tell my girlfriend:-)

[totoro]

atkinsonrr wrote:
> I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring
> points of view.

It is really simple. Folks interested in the topic have to make it
a good place to discuss the topic.

This is true of all open forums, mailing lists, usenet groups, etc.

> it seems that without intervention, this forum is
> fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

Yes, but to quote Pogo: we have met the enemy and he is us.
There is no one to intervene. We have to clean up our act, or
it will die. I've seen it happen many times over the 16 years or
so that I've been playing with usenet, Compuserv, etc.

The simple fact is that no moderator can exist. It is too much work,
and too subjective for any sane person to volunteer. No one at
SlimDevices is going to spend the time, they all have jobs to do.

So as Marion Barry said about another topic, get used to it.
Clean up or die.

Of course, one could argue that expecting some 'moderator' to straighten
things out is impractical and itself a waste of bandwidth. These days of
widespread broadband, cable, DSL and FIOS, the concept of wasting
bandwidth may be obsolete, but those old timers think it was and is
a valuable concept. Tragedy of the commons and all that.

Audiophile are probably more susceptible as a group than many others,
because by definition, audiophiles care about things most people do not
consider important. Most care passionately, often with a religious
fervor. Which obviously opens a door for wise cracks, jokes, and insults.

Some of it may even be justified. We believe that Bose sound systems
sound terrible. We believe that all amplifiers do not sound alike. We
believe that as good as a SqueezeBox sounds, it could sound better.
And we may believe that even the Transporter is not the end of the line,
so we can think of mods and hacks and a Transporter 2.

-- altho I personally believe that speaker positioning and room
treatment are much more important than most of the tweaks that
audiophiles obsess over.

So clean up your act. This means you. Everyone. Period.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimse...msoftware.html

+10 Bump

[tomjtx]

Great post, Pat.

But, can I still make jokes and tell of my visits to the 3rd brane?
Sean Madman is planning some really cool stuff over there at PhatDevices:-)

[andy_c]

I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring points of view.

Yeah right. You just want everyone who disagrees with your point of view to STFU. What a bunch of disingenuous crap.

[opaqueice]

I go away for a few days and come back to see... people starting whiny threads on an audiophile forum to complain about off-topic threads?? And then another thread to complain that the first off-topic thread went off-topic??? Has everyone gone crazy? Too much turkey?

If you don't like the forum, go away. No one is making you read it, and I really doubt anyone from SD is going to step in and moderate it. Stop acting like children (and that goes for almost everyone that posted on that other, rather unbelievable thread).

Let's just get back to talking about audio.

[tomjtx]

I
Let's just get back to talking about audio.

But that would be so boring:-)

[Patrick Dixon]

I can say posting in this forum feels like trying to have a friendly game in a playground where a handful of self-congratulating bullies have taken over the "turf". I choose not to offer my questions, thoughts or insights much in this forum. Not because I'm insecure in my ability to take care of myself on the playground and not because I am insecure in my beliefs and feelings. I choose not to participate because I simply dont feel it offers me enough benefit for the cost in time or emotional energy I would expend.

Very well put.