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  1. #21
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    Thought I would chime in here. Yes I agree also with everything everyone is saying which is why I still am with LMS at home. Phillip and Michael and many others have been amazing and we all owe them more gratitude than we can give them. I even tried Roonlabs for their 30 day trial and even through their Metadata display engine is unbelievable amazing, I chose not to move to them. (here is why https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tha...easons/31511/4). I also decided to use Bluesound in my office, mainly because their powernode 2 comes in a very very small single package and sounds leap years head of sonos and i just needed it for one zone.

    However, you cannot discount challenges that LMS has (so a little tough love):
    1. with the system being opensource, support for problems is mostly trial and error by the end user with support by the community here -- and that is usually by Philip or Michael. this can be unbelievable frustrating. I just had to install SSL on my QNAP NAS to get the podcasts working right. I am not exaggerating when I say that it took me 60 hours of my time, at least 10 different people over two different forums (here and the QNAP forum), probably 30 to 40 different posts on about 10 different threads, etc.. etc.. and worst of all, I had almost zero idea what I was doing. Most people won't do this, most when they try may break something else while fixing, etc.. etc.. even with my issue I saw over the forums that people broke things not related to their issue and just gave up.

    2. to the above point, as 20 year old LMS equipment breaks down and as things need fixing (ie the above issue), you're going to get into Linux and the vast majority of people won't do this. and the ones here that aren't there yet, then they have to make that decision, they'll bail and go to something else. (Bluesound is the way to go over Sonos). And quite frankly, they shouldn't have to get into Linux.

    3. there are just a ton of quarks to LMS, especially in the end user navigation, setup, plugins, etc.. the installation of plugins, the descriptions of them, the setup of plugins, then on top of all that, functionality appears to be somewhat hap-hazard and inconsistent and the server code itself needs a bit of love. in addition, there is no plausible avenue for someone who knows nothing about streaming and wants to get into it, to use LMS. unless that person is willing to spend 100's of hours researching and figuring out where to buy stuff, then set it all up via Linux, etc... someone who has a lot of experience with LMS will have to set it up for someone else. Another example of this is I use Deezer HiFi. (Tidal's music collection is not nearly as wide and deep as Deezer and although I can hear a bit of difference in some music between CD and 92/24, it's not enough to justify Tidal). However, to get all of Deezer working, I have to use it via ickstream and use it via mysqueezebox.com. Both ways are completely different in it's navigation and quite honestly, it's frustrating. Each source of music seems to work and navigate almost completely differently. It's stupidly frustrating. My wife, she can't use it. She has to ask me to play something specific because it's so confusing and she is always asking me to put things on favorites because the navigation is so different between each source of music. But I put up with it because I love opensource, I love LMS and I am willing to put in the stupid amount of time to insure it keeps working. The vast majority of people won't put up with it and like I said about, quite frankly, they shouldn't have to.

    Companies like Roonlabs and Bluesound are making incredible strides. Eventually, their end user apps and server functionality will exceed that of LMS. I hope that doesn't happen and I would love to see LMS stay at the forefront of the market. For that to happen, I think very soon we as a community will have to decide that we need resources to clean up LMS, add functionality to keep it ahead of everyone else, and just make it easier and more consistent. I am wiling to do it. I am even will to pay money and learn Linux (which I sort of had to do to get the SSL thing working).

    Anyway.. I love LMS and I hope we all continue to stay engaged.
    LMS 7.9.1 on QNAP 219P+
    3 wired Touch End Points
    Jolida Tube DAC III
    Marantz 2270 to Boston Acoustics Slimlines
    Marantz 7010 to B&W CM10 S2

  2. #22
    Senior Member iPhone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhallag View Post
    Thought I would chime in here. Yes I agree also with everything everyone is saying which is why I still am with LMS at home. Phillip and Michael and many others have been amazing and we all owe them more gratitude than we can give them. I even tried Roonlabs for their 30 day trial and even through their Metadata display engine is unbelievable amazing, I chose not to move to them. (here is why https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tha...easons/31511/4). I also decided to use Bluesound in my office, mainly because their powernode 2 comes in a very very small single package and sounds leap years head of sonos and i just needed it for one zone.. .. .. ..

    Anyway.. I love LMS and I hope we all continue to stay engaged.

    Many valid points as always dhallag. Yet I continue to see the major issue with today's Generation and today's hardware/software integration, which is today's youth mainly just want to use the latest and greatest ideas. Most really have no care as to how it works and more importantly to Squeezebox and LMS, they just want to turn it on having it completely ready to do what they bought it for. I have always wanted to know how it works while at the same time using it, I was the kid in the neighborhood that had to have the latest and greatest new electronic gizmo that just came out. I build my first crystal radio set at age 9 and by age 12 I was building my own RF Transceivers, Amplifiers, and Antennas. Again, teens today just want to turn it on.

    This came to a huge realization when I walked out of the used CD Shop the other night. It is right beside a Starbucks and a 20 something came over and asked me why I still bought CDs? I said so that I can rip them and store them so I could play them back at home, in my car, and at our weekend getaways. He really didn't know how to rip CDs as he thought you just bought Songs from iTunes or Amazon or used Spotify. He said he had about bought about 30 gig of songs then started using Spotify instead of buying. I told him that I had complete albums, not just the one or two hit songs from albums bought via single song downloads. I told him I had 8TB of my favorite songs in the Thunderbird and showed him. I told him I owned them and didn't need to pay a monthly service fee or have an Internet connection to have access to them or play them. I did agree that for his monthly fee he had access to 30 Million Songs, and if I were just starting out today that it would be a hard choice to make for me but that some of the things I like will never be on Spotify so in the end I would still be owning and ripping CDs.

    Sonos is dead to me for two main reasons: their system will not handle my huge music library and their over priced hardware is nowhere near the quality that I can buy on the open market for less money. As for Roon, it is a slick interface, but I am listening to music not wanting to watch Metadata. When I am watching and listening, that is a Blu-ray or DVD in my home theater room. LMS just does what I need it to do. Years ago, I converted over to Vortexbox for my servers and have never looked back because Vortexbox runs Tonido, Plex, and LMS perfectly for me.

    Learning Linux has been talked about, but one really doesn't need to unless one wants to get the most out of ones server and LMS. And it is not like one needs to write ones own code, one just needs to learn how to SSH and then follow directions others more versed in Linux in the community provide. But Linux is king in my opinion, who in the world can work with Microsoft Server or Windows 10 OS? Many of my friends and neighbors are using LMS and Squeezebox now, and I have upgraded everyone of them to Vortexbox because all they have to do is feed their Vortexbox a CD anytime they buy new music.

    There is a reason many people use iTunes, and the main reason is NOT that it is the best choice for listening to music! It is because it is point and click and comes preinstalled on almost everything Apple and it just works!
    .
    iPhone
    Media Room:
    ModWright Platinum Signature Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, Vandersteen Speakers: Quatro Wood Mains, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Video: Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1, Vandersteen V2W Subwoofer

    Living Room:
    Transporter, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1

    Office: Touch with Vandersteen VSM-1s
    Kitchen: Touch in-wall mount w/ Thiel Powerpoint 1.2s
    Bedroom: Squeezebox BOOM
    Bathroom: Squeezebox Radio
    Around the House: SliMP3, SB1, SB2, SB3
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iPhone View Post
    Many valid points as always dhallag. Yet I continue to see the major issue with today's Generation and today's hardware/software integration, which is today's youth mainly just want to use the latest and greatest ideas.
    I think it is worse than that. When I was growing up, you could take stuff apart, figure it out, and understand it. Modern stuff is all a board with identical-looking SMD chips, and everything is done in software that you have no access to. Clarke's Third Law at work - any technology you can't understand is just magic to you, and that's how you think about it.
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by iPhone View Post
    Many valid points as always dhallag. Yet I continue to see the major issue with today's Generation and today's hardware/software integration, which is today's youth mainly just want to use the latest and greatest ideas. Most really have no care as to how it works and more importantly to Squeezebox and LMS, they just want to turn it on having it completely ready to do what they bought it for. I have always wanted to know how it works while at the same time using it, I was the kid in the neighborhood that had to have the latest and greatest new electronic gizmo that just came out. I build my first crystal radio set at age 9 and by age 12 I was building my own RF Transceivers, Amplifiers, and Antennas. Again, teens today just want to turn it on.

    This came to a huge realization when I walked out of the used CD Shop the other night. It is right beside a Starbucks and a 20 something came over and asked me why I still bought CDs? I said so that I can rip them and store them so I could play them back at home, in my car, and at our weekend getaways. He really didn't know how to rip CDs as he thought you just bought Songs from iTunes or Amazon or used Spotify. He said he had about bought about 30 gig of songs then started using Spotify instead of buying. I told him that I had complete albums, not just the one or two hit songs from albums bought via single song downloads. I told him I had 8TB of my favorite songs in the Thunderbird and showed him. I told him I owned them and didn't need to pay a monthly service fee or have an Internet connection to have access to them or play them. I did agree that for his monthly fee he had access to 30 Million Songs, and if I were just starting out today that it would be a hard choice to make for me but that some of the things I like will never be on Spotify so in the end I would still be owning and ripping CDs.

    Sonos is dead to me for two main reasons: their system will not handle my huge music library and their over priced hardware is nowhere near the quality that I can buy on the open market for less money. As for Roon, it is a slick interface, but I am listening to music not wanting to watch Metadata. When I am watching and listening, that is a Blu-ray or DVD in my home theater room. LMS just does what I need it to do. Years ago, I converted over to Vortexbox for my servers and have never looked back because Vortexbox runs Tonido, Plex, and LMS perfectly for me.

    Learning Linux has been talked about, but one really doesn't need to unless one wants to get the most out of ones server and LMS. And it is not like one needs to write ones own code, one just needs to learn how to SSH and then follow directions others more versed in Linux in the community provide. But Linux is king in my opinion, who in the world can work with Microsoft Server or Windows 10 OS? Many of my friends and neighbors are using LMS and Squeezebox now, and I have upgraded everyone of them to Vortexbox because all they have to do is feed their Vortexbox a CD anytime they buy new music.

    There is a reason many people use iTunes, and the main reason is NOT that it is the best choice for listening to music! It is because it is point and click and comes preinstalled on almost everything Apple and it just works!
    .
    Yes to all of the above. At the same time, I see the market a little differently. So I live in Chicago and have good relations with two high end audio consultants here called "Decibel" and "Audio Consultants" I too am frustrated with companies like Sonos and Apple and Spotify as they I feel are complicit with it being ok to listen to crappy quality music. Decibel is expanding it's services and Audio Consultant is consolidating. I don't think it's a coincidence that a short time after the move from CD's to digital music streaming, there's been an upsurge in vinyl. Even in crappy home systems, the vinyl sounds better. At the same time, much of the move also has to do with the listening experience -- reading a seeing the music and the artist. And people including me want convenience. The debate about the difference between the purist listener who doesn't care about metadata versus the convenience of digital media streaming is crap. It's the wrong debate to be having because it puts us at odds over the entire music experience. There is no one right way or wrong way to listen to music. We need to stop fighting about our turf and understand that the entire music experience is important: music source quality, ease of use, ease of access, how you listen to music, metadata, and how it sounds. And we have the technology to bring it all together. I spent a ton of time, effort and money to insure that my music sounds excellent within excess dollars. Everyone loves the sound of my place. At the same time, everyone loves the klarita Muso "Now Playing" screen that they see while listening to music.

    If we want LMS to be around for a while, we gotta address this as a community and put away our 'elitist' turf wars. Companies like BlueSound and Roonlabs will be eating LMS's lunch in two - five years if we don't.
    LMS 7.9.1 on QNAP 219P+
    3 wired Touch End Points
    Jolida Tube DAC III
    Marantz 2270 to Boston Acoustics Slimlines
    Marantz 7010 to B&W CM10 S2

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    I think it is worse than that. When I was growing up, you could take stuff apart, figure it out, and understand it. Modern stuff is all a board with identical-looking SMD chips, and everything is done in software that you have no access to. Clarke's Third Law at work - any technology you can't understand is just magic to you, and that's how you think about it.
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

    It's as true now as it was in the 50s.

    The big intervening variable then, as now, was the particular technological sophistication of the individual concerned. Sure, some of us could assemble a crystal radio or clock alarm or such from components, but how many of us actually knew what a "resistor" or a "transistor" did? Some, but not most. It was just all magic that you could string together following instructions and it would work and we had the illusion of building something from scratch. But not really.

    Most of the world back in the day just took the available technology (electricity, radio, tv) as an available resource, and had no real sense of what made it all work. Same now.

    I really like having my own collection of "owned" (or, let's be honest, in a few instances "stolen") music. I love using LMS, and enjoy tinkering. But if I were starting out on the music appreciation path now I'd probably be using streaming services almost exclusively, and discovering new music that way, taking in live music when I could, and discovering new music THAT way as well, and gleefully taking advantage of the all-you-can-hear buffet.

    And I wouldn't need to understand how the streaming services work and why they are so effective at finding new music I'll like. It's just magic.

    R.
    LMS on a dedicated server (FitPC3)
    Transporter (Ethernet) - main listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm speakers
    Touch (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers
    Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space
    Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.)
    Radio (WiFi) - home office
    Control - Squeeze Control (Android mobile), 2 Controllers (seldom used), Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 4)
    Touch x 1 - spare
    UE Radio x 1 - spare
    Boom x 1 - spare
    Controller x 1 - Spare
    Duet Receiver (backup)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonM View Post
    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

    It's as true now as it was in the 50s.

    The big intervening variable then, as now, was the particular technological sophistication of the individual concerned. Sure, some of us could assemble a crystal radio or clock alarm or such from components, but how many of us actually knew what a "resistor" or a "transistor" did? Some, but not most. It was just all magic that you could string together following instructions and it would work and we had the illusion of building something from scratch. But not really.

    Most of the world back in the day just took the available technology (electricity, radio, tv) as an available resource, and had no real sense of what made it all work. Same now.

    I really like having my own collection of "owned" (or, let's be honest, in a few instances "stolen") music. I love using LMS, and enjoy tinkering. But if I were starting out on the music appreciation path now I'd probably be using streaming services almost exclusively, and discovering new music that way, taking in live music when I could, and discovering new music THAT way as well, and gleefully taking advantage of the all-you-can-hear buffet.

    And I wouldn't need to understand how the streaming services work and why they are so effective at finding new music I'll like. It's just magic.

    R.
    I agree in the main but also disagree to an extent about discovering new music through streaming services. There is too much of it available so it becomes disposable and rarely a valid source of new music.
    Back in the day we had a much more limited choice largely based on certain key radio shows - John Peel for instance - perhaps 2 hours long. We bought records by hitherto unknown artists because we heard them first on Peel.
    Nowadays Spotify gives you too much choice?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Pi3 pCp/LMS storage QNAP TS419p (NFS)
    Living Room - Joggler & SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 -> Celestion F20s
    Office - Pi3+Sreen -> Sony TAFE320 -> Celestion F10s / Pi2+DAC & SB3 -> Onkyo CRN755 -> Wharfedale Modus Cubes
    Dining Room -> SB Boom
    Kitchen -> UE Radio (upgraded to SB Radio)
    Bedroom (Bedside) - Pi2+DAC ->ToppingTP21 ->AKG Headphones
    Bedroom (TV) - SB Touch ->Sherwood AVR ->Mordaunt Short M10s
    Everything controlled by iPeng

  7. #27
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    There were a couple of good and contrasting points made above, and I think both are valid.

    I agree with the assessment that LMS has its quirks and isn't perhaps the friendliest game to get into. It's showing its age with regard to streaming services, etc., and of course the abandonment by Logitech didn't help things. From that regard, perhaps it could use an overhaul, but that isn't always straight forward. I've seen a few other software change over to Open Source, and it isn't the smoothest thing, even if everything keeps working fairly well.

    As for the other side of the comment about being able to work, tinker, build, troubleshoot; that argument is fine, but both points of view shouldn't be mutually exclusive. I like to work under the hood and understand software, but when I start with any new program, I want to see it work without much effort. I can only figure out what I want to tinker with after I see it work in its default settings. I always find it frustrating when things have to be tweaked from the beginning because it doesn't work out of the box.

    Of course LMS did work out of the box for me, mostly, almost 10 years ago when I started with it. It's the unfortunate aftermath of Logitech discontinuing development that has led to the challenges today. Some bugs persist from the beginning and stream services now are not the same as they were then. I am most thankful that it has been allowed to continue on. I like hearing there are other servers and systems coming about, but as long as LMS works for me, I'll stick with it, perhaps comforted by the knowledge as other systems might be adequate in the future when or if the need arises to switch from LMS.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Apesbrain's Avatar
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    As far as playing music from your own collection and internet radio, I know of nothing the equal of LMS. It's gapless, supports up to DSD128, controllable on any platform, easy to install/configure, host to dozens of useful plugins, and free. I've been running it on a dedicated Windows PC for a dozen years and have never had a serious problem with it. Currently running the latest 7.9.1 beta and controlling 5 Squeezeboxes and 5 portable devices via web browser and Orange Squeeze. I don't know if it makes me "smart", but I have no intention of moving to something different.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Apesbrain View Post
    It's gapless, supports up to DSD128, controllable on any platform, easy to install/configure, host to dozens of useful plugins, and free.
    Can you elaborate on support for DSD128? Is it via Touch or other third party transport? I m using Touch with EDO plugin to feed my DAC via USB. My DAC plays DSD64 n DSD128 both via DoP. Touch is limited to 192kHz PCM so DoP support is limited to DSD64 over 176kHz PCM.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

  10. #30
    There is another dimension to this debate. It may be a generational thing but I like to own stuff. I don't much admire myself for this as I can see the ethical, philosophical, social and environmental benefits of the commons. In another life, I would like to be a Zen monk. But as I am, my music collection, which I have chosen, purchased, ripped and obsessively tagged is now a part of my life, history and being. If I were younger maybe streaming would float my boat and there may be alternative or better solutions for this but as it is, nothing handles a curated personal collection of music better than Squeezebox which is an essential part of my life.

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