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  1. #11

    Thank you...

    ... nice to read the responses here and thanks for everyone taken the time over my initial rambling. I've done (badly) the mixed rip to mp3/wma over the years and so am now going for flac and am torn between usable meta-data vs. retentive meta-data with everything in it...

    It's the latter that is a bigger draw. Just to stay with classical for a moment - which is where I came in with my initial post, looking at 170CD Mozart box - I'm currently thinking about "just" ripping with enough detail to identify the disk. What I'd then like is another source of meta-data to use in conjunction with this to build up the Squeeze database. I don't want the scan based just on the files.

    The reason is that I can't help thinking this data exists. Excluding the odd "found" work Mozart's output for new stuff has been fairly minimal for a while. It's been catalogued and indexed. I'd like to rip a 40/41 symphony CD with little more than a unique id/track number in each track and then pull in data that knows what 1) its four tracks are 2) the details about the particular recording. I know dbPowerAmp is good at grabbing meta-data but I want more! I also want this to generate multiple pseudo-albums as it goes. It's CD x/170 of this box (I might care in future - it's not impossible I'd want to listen to everything in its collation order. Unlikely, obviously but why lose this detail) so I'd like an album for that. I'd like 40 & 41 as separate works too, with a work/album for each. I could obviously do this manually...

    I'm using dbPowerAmp to sequence mutli-CDs (e.g. operas) as one long CD. (I've done this manually so I really appreciate this!)

    I'd also like LMS to be multi-view (or multi-library). I like the suggestion about suffixing album versions with detail. I'd like to know all exist but I'd like to nominate one as a "canonical" version for the other-half (who is - happily - considerably less obsessed about this stuff).

    Oh, and Alexa integration! (Which I know is underway elsewhere.)

    But, in short: I'd like not to fiddle with a tag application on files; I'd like to fiddle with a database of data that is used when scanning files to create the LMS content. Seems doable, but a lot of effort. At least I've quite a bit of music to listen to whilst I'm at it...

    Thanks to all; still open for any hints tips or advice.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleMonkey View Post
    Thanks to all; still open for any hints tips or advice.
    As a retired computer systems guy I approached this from the user point of view - How do I want to find a particular piece of music ? How do I actually listen to music ?

    I want to search for a work by composer and work, then the system (Squeezebox) should present me with a list of the work that identifies the orchestra and conductor and maybe date. As for listening, just press play and maybe I might "add to end" another work or I will let Spicefly SugarCube do it's thing.

    The limitations of the Squeezebox database schema also comes into play - I did not want to get into defining extra fields, just use the existing Artist, Album, Track, Title, Genre and Year.

    Pictures are the easiest way to show what works for me.

    Start with an easy one - Beethoven Symphony 9.
    Way back when Sony & Phillips were developing the CD format, the king boss cockey of Phillips specified that a CD should be able to hold the complete Beethoven 9th Symphony on one disc. So this is always 1 work = 1 album = 1 CD.

    Michael Herger has added an excellent text search, so searching for "Beet Sym 9"
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  3. #13
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    and a bit more complicated - Mozart's 21st Piano Concerto - search for Moz conc 21
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  4. #14
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    Mozart's Piano Concerto 21 doesn't fill a full CD, so I split the CD by work.
    Sometimes a work will go across 2 CDs, for example Beethoven's 5 Piano Concertos are frequently sold as a 3 CD set so these end up as 5 albums.

    I also scan the booklet, back and CD and save them in the folder with the tracks. To see them, select the work, then a track and there is all sorts of info including "Local Artwork" clicking on an image displays it.

    This tagging is ongoing. There are still quite a lot of box sets that I have not broken up into 1 work = 1 album, and compilation albums such as the Adagio albums are left as is. With "filler" works that are frequently tacked on to fill out a CD containing a major work I make a value call and sometimes make them an album but other times I'm sick of being pedantic and just leave them tacked on. They can always be found by searching.
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    Last edited by Wirrunna; 2017-04-12 at 21:23.
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wirrunna View Post
    I also scan the booklet, back and CD and save them in the folder with the tracks.
    I admire your dedication. Exactly the type of thing I was considering to nice to know others are as exacting; good work!

    Question to anyone who's done it: I know flac-taggers exist but any recommendations for command line tools to edit tags (Windows preferably)? (I'm still thinking about creating a meta-data database of info, then using scripts to update tags where necessary.)

  6. #16
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    I would also try to be as "standard" as possible .

    bending the tags to much to suit one playback application can make more work for you down the road .

    Hence why i just use the most basic of tags so that i find stuff .
    And stopped before i put to much work into it (when i retire i dont need a stamp collection )

    Also why tags is really not enough , especially for classical.
    There are context outside of the file , your library , the music in general etc.

    Thats why competitors like ROON tries another aproach , they just takes your tags as a "hint" and overlays their own database agregated from diffrent sources.
    and top that off with diffrent filters search options links and relations between musicians and more.
    But guess what, they also have problems with classical

    Just to start the "work" is the thing to start with not the album, normal tagging goes wrong directly .
    Classical music was inveted before recording media . Many classical albums I have have the main work that sells the CD then some 15 min "filler" with the same orchestra just to fill upp the CD.
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  7. #17
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    Mnyb says try to be as "standard" as possible. I agree totally, stick to the basic tags and be consistent in your naming.
    Although looking at my example of Mozart Piano Concerto 21 I would kick the Master File Maintenance person off the project. I will stick a Post-It to my screen with the correct format for Album names and try and be consistent from now on.

    But with full text search, as long as the data is somewhere in the tag it can be retrieved.

    I can search for "Rudolf Serkin" or just "Serkin" and get a list of works that Serkin is the performer. Same with conductors, if you know the name you can search for it. What you can't do is just get a list of conductors or orchestras. However, I can search for "beet sym" and get a list of all the Albums with Symphony in the album tag and Beethoven in the Artist tag and that gives me a list of Orchestras and conductors. If I want to know performers beyond what is in the tag I can retrieve the local artwork and read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleMonkey View Post
    Question to anyone who's done it: I know flac-taggers exist but any recommendations for command line tools to edit tags (Windows preferably)? (I'm still thinking about creating a meta-data database of info, then using scripts to update tags where necessary.)
    I have never heard of anyone creating tags this way. However there are quite a few tools that create meta-data database from tags.

    Most of my tags were created using dbPoweramp years ago and I'm slowly going through and re-doing them as I break classical CDs into Album=Work.

    The tools I use include MP3Tag, AlbumArtDownloaderXUI-1.02 to retrieve album art, and dbPoweramp for the replay gain tags. MusicIP also has a good tag editor and search facility.

    If I was starting again, I would rip and tag 20 CDs of a variety of classical works and then load them into LMS and try the different ways of retrieving the works and adjusting tags until it works for you.
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Wirrunna View Post
    If I was starting again, I would rip and tag 20 CDs of a variety of classical works and then load them into LMS and try the different ways of retrieving the works and adjusting tags until it works for you.
    ... and I have started. Starting with the easy stuff so a box of Verdi operas. Contenting myself for the moment with album as name of Opera and artist/albumartist as Verdi. Some fiddling as sometimes track meta-data include act/scene, sometimes it didn't. Keeping it simple with just the first line.

    However, will be make notes as I go for later use. When this hits LMS/whatever at some point in the future I'll know which of these has Maria Callas singing but not bothered for the moment.

    Will work on the scripted tag-updates at some point as I'm happy this must be possible and if I want to tweak meta-data I'll have a database (to be created) to drive everything. More opera and symphonies as these seem easiest and will think about use of "work", etc. later.

    As for scripting the tagging might have to write this myself but will check out the flac tools first...

  9. #19

    I've started...

    Thanks again to all taking time to reply. I've decide to start and keep things simple. Flac via dbPowerAmp with artist, albumartist and composer as composer surname (where not ambiguous) and album as work. Have done a box of Verdi operas (ignoring CDs to treat operas as single albums) and two sets of Beethoven symphonies, using square brackets to disambiguate as orchestra, conductor, year. Am now stepping up a bit with a complete Locatelli box, which means ripping sections of individual discs to create separate works.

    I'm also keeping my own meta-data as I go along (current in Excel by work type) so I'll be added chorus/orchestra/lead performers to the operas later (so I can search - by means yet to be confirmed - for "Callas", etc.) Will be using flactools to add this later from my meta-data and scripts that I'll write (so I can tweak Excel and rerun as much as necessary).

    Lessons so far: make sure there's no track selected in dbPowerAmp when changing meta-data; remember to re-sequence track numbers when ripping works (learnt this the hard way after the second Beethoven box...); use notepad to keep important details to hand to copy/paste rather than retyping to avoid typing errors; need to be flexible on-the-fly, re-discovering that the Locatelli box has trio sonatas as both violin and flute versions with same opus details.

    In summary: my minimal meta-data in the files (for now) is keeping my inner retentive happy. dbPowerAmp is great, but I don't trust myself to update work, etc. consistently when ripping. I want to rip in a usable way then tag in detail later as two separate processes.

    Andrew.

  10. #20

    ... and plug-in to follow ...

    ... having decided I'm going to add as much meta-data as possible I'm also designing a classical plug-in to help. (Although need to investigate LMS 7.9; am on 7.7 running a on Synology NAS so getting to 7.9 is more than pushing a button as the package isn't available).

    Might be some way off but if there's anything in LMS you'd like to be able to do but can't for classical please let me know I might work it in...

    Andrew.

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