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  1. #41
    Senior Member Apesbrain's Avatar
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    Did you ever tell us whether there was a CUSTOM-CONFIG.CONF file on your server?

  2. #42
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    I swapped inputs on the amp as part of testing to be sure the audible difference is not in the amp. A few rimes actually. It wasn't

    My testing is mostly not using the digital outputs as that is not how I use these. I did however connect a simple DAC as requested to verify whether the issue was in the analog output of the SB3 only. The volume was the same so it is not. 0

    I also tested using Internet radio and Pandora which I don't normally use but I think takes weird plugins etc out of the equation,

    I did a clean install of the LMS software on a different PC/server. If the brains of this really do come from the server this should eliminate any software settings as the cause, right? It there is a dramatic volume difference between both the optical output as well as the Fixed Analog out at 100%

    As for this being described as "unbelievable" I am not sure how to reply. On a volume scale of 100 steps I have to increase the volume by 30 steps to balance the sound between synchronized SB3s. 50 on one vs 80 on the other. If it were a step or two maybe it could be observer error but 30 steps is practically a 1/3 of the range. It seems unbelievable to me that the hardware itself cannot be a possible explanation but I am following through on all requested steps to prove otherwise.

    If we are at a loss here I can just accept it is different. I was hoping for a reason but I will survive if i don't get one :-)

  3. #43
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpa View Post
    Whenever I see a problem which seems to be unbelievable - I always go back to basics:
    - log & check slimproto message (e.g. AUDG message) for players and compare to ensure all settings and gain are identical.
    That's sounds reasonable what are the log settings for that ?

    And yes there is an unknown factor here we readers are unaware of that surely would explain this when we know it .

    Connecting to the same DAC input and capture it afterwards .

    Any PC with spdiff or toslink input ? You can view the files in various programs and even use audiodiffmaker if you want .
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
    Misc use: Radio (with battery)
    iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  4. #44
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    And to make it simple .

    100% volume at the exact same digital input should make them equal ( as any other such device ).
    That's not about what kind of squeezebox it is.
    There is no hardware difference between these players that can explain this , it's basically some minor things mostly cosmetic, they did not really redesign anything .when logitech acquired the product .

    IF not .

    The volume are different even if think they are equal , not 100% on one player due to some setting difference .

    There some other flaw in the testing methodology .
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
    Misc use: Radio (with battery)
    iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  5. #45
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Just a longshot .

    What do the players reports as at the info page in the web UI ( settings/info )

    The mac id does it corresponds to the sticker under each player ? It should begin with 00:04:20 .

    Just check don't publish them on this site.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
    Misc use: Radio (with battery)
    iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnyb View Post
    That's sounds reasonable what are the log settings for that ?

    And yes there is an unknown factor here we readers are unaware of that surely would explain this when we know it.
    Enable logging for network.protocol.slimproto tpo DEBUG to get full values of "audg" message.

    The audg can have a few version but it usually contains in order (amongst other data) the "old volume", "digital volume control", "preamp volume control" and "new volume".

    To confirm setting of players are identical check server.prefs and there is a "group" of settings for each player. The volume realted settings are there as well as lots of other settings (in alphabetical order). The volume related settings to check could include analogOutMode, digitalVolumeControl, disableDac, preampVolumeControl, transitionType, transitionSmart, replayGainMode, remoteReplayGain. The "pitch", "bass", "treble" can be ignored as they are for SB1. AFAIK "polarityInversion" is not used by SB3.
    Last edited by bpa; 2017-04-09 at 01:30.

  7. #47
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    Reading all this, I can't help but think that this is just all due to a difference of hardware between the two players, potentially at the outputs.

    The question of 100% and digital output, would only hold if the OP uses a digital output preferably to the same receiver, amp, etc.

    Other outputs are not necessarily going to be equivalent because there would be a conversion within the device itself, which is apparently the problem.

    However, I would ultimately say this is only a problem if you want to operate the devices at volumes where the differences become problematic (i.e. you are so high you can't compensate).

    It is a bit of a curiosity, but unless one wants to disassemble the squeezeboxes to compare parts, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Mnyb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emalvick View Post
    Reading all this, I can't help but think that this is just all due to a difference of hardware between the two players, potentially at the outputs.

    The question of 100% and digital output, would only hold if the OP uses a digital output preferably to the same receiver, amp, etc.

    Other outputs are not necessarily going to be equivalent because there would be a conversion within the device itself, which is apparently the problem.

    However, I would ultimately say this is only a problem if you want to operate the devices at volumes where the differences become problematic (i.e. you are so high you can't compensate).

    It is a bit of a curiosity, but unless one wants to disassemble the squeezeboxes to compare parts, I'm not sure it would be worth it.
    Thats the thing OP claims that the 100% volume at the same digital input at the same DAC differs between two players digital output ?? Some key info is missing. Or did he realy test at the same input ? even digital inputs can have gain in HT recivers for example
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub.
    Bedroom/Office: Boom
    Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
    Misc use: Radio (with battery)
    iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
    (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
    server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

    http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

  9. #49
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    MACS: I confirmed all MAC addresses are 00:04:20:xx:xx:xx.

    Simple test: Last night I connected the two SB3s that I had connected to the test LMS to the original LMS running the current software version. Both players automatically did a firmware update to firmware 137

    I then placed them side by side physically.
    Via the LMS I synchronized them to play a single long music file.
    I also set each to "output level is fixed at 100%".
    I physically connected a simple outboard DAC to my amp.
    I then moved the toslink cable from one player to the other several times to listen for differences.

    There is a significant volume difference between the units even when connected to an outboard DAC and when connected via the same cable to the same input on the amp. Without the ability to adjust the volume I can't measure the difference except to say it is significant

    I believe this isolates the units themselves as there were no other hardware devices in the chain.
    I believe this rules out software settings too since both untis were synchronized playing the same file from the same server.

    I don't know how to enable debug logging on these (slimproto?). Even if I did, if the logfiles say the volumes are the same but they are not audibly the same this doesn't tell me anything. Of course if the log shows differences that is another story - but would it tell me what to change to make the units sound the same?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mushupork View Post
    I don't know how to enable debug logging on these (slimproto?). Even if I did, if the logfiles say the volumes are the same but they are not audibly the same this doesn't tell me anything. Of course if the log shows differences that is another story - but would it tell me what to change to make the units sound the same?
    WebUI Settings/Advanced/Logging/network.protocol.slimproto to DEBUG and click Apply.

    If log shows a difference then the problem is definitively software and not hardware. Other logs would be used to trace the problem back to origin.

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