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  1. #11
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    This is interesting to me as I have been considering upgrading the ADC that I use for ripping Vinyl from the current 16/48 Behringer that I use at the moment to something capable of 24/xx.
    There is a massive price jump from 16/48 to anything capable of 24/xx. Are you all saying that it would (as I suspect) be a complete waste of money and that 16bit 1s & 0s are going to sound the same as 24bit versions?
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by d6jg View Post
    This is interesting to me as I have been considering upgrading the ADC that I use for ripping Vinyl from the current 16/48 Behringer that I use at the moment to something capable of 24/xx.
    There is a massive price jump from 16/48 to anything capable of 24/xx. Are you all saying that it would (as I suspect) be a complete waste of money and that 16bit 1s & 0s are going to sound the same as 24bit versions?
    Yes. Vinyl has dynamic range equivalent to only about 12 bits resolution and frequency response that while extended at low levels beyond 20 KHz, has so much inherent distortion above 12 KHz that it actually sounds better with less frequency response than 44 KHz sampling provides.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d6jg View Post
    This is interesting to me as I have been considering upgrading the ADC that I use for ripping Vinyl from the current 16/48 Behringer that I use at the moment to something capable of 24/xx.
    There is a massive price jump from 16/48 to anything capable of 24/xx. Are you all saying that it would (as I suspect) be a complete waste of money and that 16bit 1s & 0s are going to sound the same as 24bit versions?
    Yes and no. You don't need even 16 bits for storing the recording of your vinyl, but 24 bits (well, maybe 20 in reality) gives you some extra dynamic range in case you get the levels wrong - once you have the recording on the computer, you can normalize the gain and it will easily fit in 16 bits.
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
    Yes. Vinyl has dynamic range equivalent to only about 12 bits resolution and frequency response that while extended at low levels beyond 20 KHz, has so much inherent distortion above 12 KHz that it actually sounds better with less frequency response than 44 KHz sampling provides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    Yes and no. You don't need even 16 bits for storing the recording of your vinyl, but 24 bits (well, maybe 20 in reality) gives you some extra dynamic range in case you get the levels wrong - once you have the recording on the computer, you can normalize the gain and it will easily fit in 16 bits.
    Thanks both
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
    Vinyl has dynamic range equivalent to only about 12 bits resolution...
    On a good day and with a following wind, maybe :-)
    IME typical vinyl is equivalent to more like 10 or 11 bits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    Yes and no. You don't need even 16 bits for storing the recording of your vinyl, but 24 bits (well, maybe 20 in reality) gives you some extra dynamic range in case you get the levels wrong.
    Since even the best vinyl struggles to achieve 12 bits of dynamic range, that's 24dB of potential headroom. Although that does assume a 16 bit ADC linear down to the LSB, so let's be generous and lop off a couple of bits. That still leaves us 12dB of headroom when setting recording levels. If anyone can't operate within those generous limits, perhaps they should find another hobby.

    One possible argument for doing the initial recording at 24 bit would be so you can avoid any possible accumulation of quantisation errors during post-recording DSP (eg. EQ, filtering, etc). To which I would respond that vinyl has such enormous levels of background noise that you can probably afford to make several DSP passes without even bothering to dither and the accumulated rounding errors would still be way below the level of the (faithfully recorded) vinyl surface noise.

    d6jg: stick with the Behringer (a UCA 202 or 222, I presume?)
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveb View Post
    On a good day and with a following wind, maybe :-)
    IME typical vinyl is equivalent to more like 10 or 11 bits.
    I was trying to be charitable
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  7. #17
    Senior Member Wombat's Avatar
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    When we are at it.
    Remember all the talk about the secret vinyl masters they use but give us shitty compressed PCM?
    Even knowledgeable people argue the DR numbers come only from the vinyl process and seldom from other masters.
    Now that Bob's MQA is around mustn't all these releases have the high DR numbers of vinyl?
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveb View Post
    On a good day and with a following wind, maybe :-)
    IME typical vinyl is equivalent to more like 10 or 11 bits.


    Since even the best vinyl struggles to achieve 12 bits of dynamic range, that's 24dB of potential headroom. Although that does assume a 16 bit ADC linear down to the LSB, so let's be generous and lop off a couple of bits. That still leaves us 12dB of headroom when setting recording levels. If anyone can't operate within those generous limits, perhaps they should find another hobby.

    One possible argument for doing the initial recording at 24 bit would be so you can avoid any possible accumulation of quantisation errors during post-recording DSP (eg. EQ, filtering, etc). To which I would respond that vinyl has such enormous levels of background noise that you can probably afford to make several DSP passes without even bothering to dither and the accumulated rounding errors would still be way below the level of the (faithfully recorded) vinyl surface noise.

    d6jg: stick with the Behringer (a UCA 202 or 222, I presume?)
    Yes Clive. I have a Behringer UCA202 and also a Behringer VMX200USB mixer that operates at 16/48. The mixer is great for ripping vinyl as after recording a single swipe R to L switches to playback mode for track splitting purposes. Behringer kit is inexpensive but very well made.
    Last edited by d6jg; 2017-02-08 at 13:13.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wombat View Post
    When we are at it.
    Remember all the talk about the secret vinyl masters they use but give us shitty compressed PCM?
    Even knowledgeable people argue the DR numbers come only from the vinyl process and seldom from other masters.
    Now that Bob's MQA is around mustn't all these releases have the high DR numbers of vinyl?
    Threads over at Hydrogen Audio have revealed that the better DR numbers from vinyl are in fact an artefact of the (necessary) EQ applied when vinyl is cut. (Not talking about RIAA, just the general stuff needed to make vinyl playback work, such as monoing the bass, removal of very low bass, tweaking the treble, etc). If you apply the same EQ to a CD rip, the DR magically goes up.

    A lot of (most?) modern vinyl is sourced from the same hypercompressed master as the CD.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Wombat's Avatar
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    I was there also
    But this is how it goes. Higher DR must sound better. Higher bitrate must sound better. Strangely people that claim to hear all kind of things trust most in these numbers.
    Lately i did read about the 24/44.1 new Metallica is said to sound better as the cd while the RMS number is exactly -0.9dB more silent as are the peaks.
    Since the 24/44.1 is said to was created for the itunes version it may simply be the cd version dropped in volume to comply with the Mastered for itunes clipping AAC headroom.

    Edit: and threre is also that chance your newly purchased 24/44.1 download went from 16 to 24 bit from the process of adding a steady watermark
    Last edited by Wombat; 2017-02-08 at 13:31.
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