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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    Hi Doc!

    I believe that Mozart transcribed an entire mass setting from memory after exiting the church where the music was performed (& jealously guarded) when he was about 12. But he was somewhat remarkable...

    My original question related to the rehearsal sessions held by conductors with their orchestras prior to an important concert (or recording, or both in the case of a live recording). Obviously each individual conductor will have his own "take" on a piece of classical music, which itself may evolve over time.

    It had nothing direct to do with recorded music per se, but rather I was trying to put comments about the brain's inability to recall specific sounds for more than a few seconds into the performance context. Are you suggesting that the members of the orchestra use the rehearsals to annotate their copies of the score, or that their skill with their instruments is down to some memory other than auditory recall, such as muscle memory, etc.?

    I think we're at bit at cross-purposes - sorry if I'm missing something obvious here, as I said I'm not a musician myself. I find playing Guitar Hero with the kids taxing enough (but fun - our family band is called "Muesli Is Murder").

    Dave
    Hi,

    Yes exactly it has nothing to do with recorded sound per se, and that is because there is a distinction between remembering the *sound*, and remembering the *music*. It's a different part of the brain and a different learned skill.

    So a conductor's brain remembers the ebb and flow of the music (consider it the "delivered meaning" of the piece), which though it could be exceptionally complex, is actually only a mental representation of the sound they heard and the actions of the players. This it's possible to know, and remember, from one day to the next, just like any person who can read can remember the meaning and story from a 100,000 word novel without having to remember all the words.

    Musicians (I know some but wouldn't claim to be one) have muscle memory (actually subconscious mental programming) that does the hard stuff of translating the feel of the music and that remembered melody and energy into the movement of fingers/lungs/lips/limbs whatever to play the instrument. The musician rarely has to think consciously about where to place fingers/limbs etc in response to the tune. This is that final step from conscious competence to unconscious competence. The point I think to take from this is that the musician / conductor only really consciously remembers a very simplified meta view of the piece, and the subconscious fills in the rest... So you are entirely correct they are not reliant on auditory memory for anything other than very short term reanalysis.

    Matt.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
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    Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with Debian+LMS 7.9.0
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  2. #182
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    Thanks for your thorough explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by drmatt View Post
    Hi,

    Yes exactly it has nothing to do with recorded sound per se, and that is because there is a distinction between remembering the *sound*, and remembering the *music*. It's a different part of the brain and a different learned skill.

    So a conductor's brain remembers the ebb and flow of the music (consider it the "delivered meaning" of the piece), which though it could be exceptionally complex, is actually only a mental representation of the sound they heard and the actions of the players. This it's possible to know, and remember, from one day to the next, just like any person who can read can remember the meaning and story from a 100,000 word novel without having to remember all the words.

    Musicians (I know some but wouldn't claim to be one) have muscle memory (actually subconscious mental programming) that does the hard stuff of translating the feel of the music and that remembered melody and energy into the movement of fingers/lungs/lips/limbs whatever to play the instrument. The musician rarely has to think consciously about where to place fingers/limbs etc in response to the tune. This is that final step from conscious competence to unconscious competence. The point I think to take from this is that the musician / conductor only really consciously remembers a very simplified meta view of the piece, and the subconscious fills in the rest... So you are entirely correct they are not reliant on auditory memory for anything other than very short term reanalysis.

    Matt.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk
    Hi Doc,

    Thanks for indulging me. It's making more sense (I think)...

    Dave

  3. #183
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    Entropy

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    The Second Law of Thermodynamics which gives us the concept of entropy (essentially a measure of disorder, which must stay constant or more usually increase with time) is the only bit of maths in Physics which is not reversible in time, & gives rise to the idea of "The Arrow Of Time" which is sadly consuming us all.
    To be more precise, I believe that the definition of entropy has recently been redefined to allow strictly loca​l temporary reductions in entropy (i.e. increases in order) within the universe (caused by such strange phenomena as life, for example), but only if the net effect over a longer period is an even greater increase in entropy (disorder) than would otherwise have been the case.

    Given the increasingly apparent results of our recent terraforming of our planet as soon as our improving technology presented us with the opportunity, this would seem to be entirely reasonable revision to the original formulation & (unfortunately for us) entirely consistent with the evidence presently available...

    Entropy can appear on first encounter to be a rather depressing concept - I remember being a bit rattled by it when the penny dropped whilst I was studying the accursed Thermodynamics in my first year at Oxford, although I've become stoically indifferent to the implications over the years. It is interesting to note that Boltzmann who formalised the concept committed suicide subsequently. The rejection of his work by his peers may have been a factor as well, or alternatively it may just have been a sudden & intense mood change that prompted his action. I don't think that he himself left us any explanation by way of note so his reasons must remain a matter for speculation.

    Dave (trying to stay )

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    To be more precise, I believe that the definition of entropy has recently been redefined to allow strictly loca​l temporary reductions in entropy (i.e. increases in order) within the universe (caused by such strange phenomena as life, for example), but only if the net effect over a longer period is an even greater increase in entropy (disorder) than would otherwise have been the case.
    Can't be all that recent because the above is what I learned in First Year Thermodynamics about 50 years ago.

  5. #185
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    Dave,
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    It is interesting to note that Boltzmann who formalised the concept committed suicide subsequently.
    I remember a documentary about famous mathematicians down the ages. It struck me that most of them finished in an asylum or committed suicide!

    When I have more time, I will improve my maths. But not TOO much.
    Last edited by darrenyeats; 2017-05-16 at 06:57.
    Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/

    SB Touch

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    Given the increasingly apparent results of our recent terraforming of our planet as soon as our improving technology presented us with the opportunity, this would seem to be entirely reasonable revision to the original formulation & (unfortunately for us) entirely consistent with the evidence presently available...
    Recent? We started about 10,000 years ago when humans began farming and clearing huge areas of forests...

  7. #187
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    Terraforming or did I mean atmosforming?

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenPG View Post
    Recent? We started about 10,000 years ago when humans began farming and clearing huge areas of forests...
    Hi Stephen!

    This is true & it must have been a massive undertaking just in GB since the whole place was originally forest, more or less. We'd done such a good job that William I had to have the New Forest in Hampshire planted so he could go hunting. It later came in handy for building warships...

    But I was thinking about the carnage to our ecosystem that resulted from the Industrial Revolution when we started adding more CO2 to the atmosphere than the planet can remove culminating in our global warming problems (which Mr Trump with his energy industry buddies is happy to dismiss as an "Alternative Fact" - oh dear). Sorry, I should have been more specific.

    Dave

    P.S. There are other CO2 capture mechanisms as well as photosynthesis - the oceans absorb some, as do some sedimentary rock formations. But the really critical factor is that the world population of humans was much lower in the quite recent past. In fact I have read that there have only ever been 30 humans who have lived & died as there as living people today. The world population has gone up 50% in my own lifetime for sure. We've got to get off fossil fuels pronto, or we've had it. Planet Earth would blithely continue without us of course. There have been at least 5 mass extinction events on Earth in the past each of which eliminated at least 99% of all living species at the time. Whoops
    Last edited by Golden Earring; 2017-05-16 at 13:04. Reason: Postscript

  8. #188
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    Godel

    Quote Originally Posted by darrenyeats View Post
    Dave,
    I remember a documentary about famous mathematicians down the ages. It struck me that most of them finished in an asylum or committed suicide!

    When I have more time, I will improve my maths. But not TOO much.
    Kurt Godel - there's another major one for you. Ended up mad as a hatter. Was pretty nuts before!

    Dave

  9. #189
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    Entropy

    Quote Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
    Can't be all that recent because the above is what I learned in First Year Thermodynamics about 50 years ago.
    Sorry Arny, the media Science correspondents must have been a bit slow (as in 48 years or so!) on the uptake then. Not really that surprising...

    Dave

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