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  1. #321
    Senior Member Julf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
    About 10 years later, this guy did an even better job of it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

    Actual files to download and use for software ABX:

    http://ethanwiner.com/aes/
    Yes, Ethan's stuff should be mandatory reading/viewing for all audiophiles.
    "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953

  2. #322
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    Food for thought!

    Thanks for the various input, guys.

    Like Wallace (of "& Gromit" fame), I have found the need to break off for some cheddar at this juncture.

    It's the stuff of nightmares...

    Dave

  3. #323
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    Doubt

    After a good helping of saturated fat, all I can really see here is the application of (to a greater or lesser extent) generally accepted scientific hypotheses being used to make real world predictions. Which in itself is fair enough, as far as it goes.

    I must confess to being a bit of a "Thomas" (no, not The Tank Engine! ) here. I know that he doesn't get the best write-up, but he wasn't quite of worst of the good Lord's disciples either.

    Unless I have a moment of epiphany first, I'm pressing ahead with my ABX experiment to confirm the foregoing for myself. Think of it as a way of obtaining further evidence for your statements if you will...

    Dave
    Last edited by Golden Earring; 2017-05-18 at 07:26. Reason: struggling with my parentheses

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    Like Wallace (of "& Gromit" fame), I have found the need to break off for some cheddar at this juncture.
    Come on now, it's got to be Wensleydale.

  5. #325
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    Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by utgg View Post
    Come on now, it's got to be Wensleydale.
    I have to (being English) rather sheepishly admit that it's Canadian cheddar at that. Can't resist the stuff!

    Dave

  6. #326
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    Audio DiffMaker & further thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Julf View Post
    Are you aware of Audio DiffMaker? There is an interesting AES paper.
    Hi Julf!

    I've finally caught up with you - this is a very interesting concept.

    The discussion at section 5.4 in the AES paper (& the accompanying Fig. 7) got me thinking that clock drift not captured by a jitter measurement might be a rational explanation of the phenomenon that I am (subjectively) experiencing...

    Did some digging about & found a rather vitriolic thread at Whatsbestforum.com but persevered through the flames & found this https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-...principle.html which also made an interesting read. Obviously it's fairly recent so subject to further scientific scrutiny before it's likely to be widely accepted.

    If the results it reports can be replicated, it still begs the question whether people are drawn to make music because they have highly discriminatory hearing a priori or whether their musical journey enables them to refine their hearing capabilities.

    It was good to see that research is still continuing into the peculiarities of the human hearing system which has almost certainly received a fair bit of attention from natural selection in both our species & doubtless in those from which we evolved in order to achieve its current complex design.

    Hope that you're having a pleasant weekend!

    Dave

    P.S. Obviously I shall try this program out before going to the trouble & expense of constructing an ABX switching box, & will report back when I have some results from this...
    Last edited by Golden Earring; 2017-05-21 at 04:47. Reason: postscript

  7. #327
    Senior Member Wombat's Avatar
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    Whatsbestforum fits your agenda pretty well. Are you sure you are not a long term member over there and forgot about it because of all these pills?

    Edit: When we are at it. Mysterious flashes are neither jitter nor aliens. It is ice crystals! https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/05/...asa-satellite/
    Last edited by Wombat; 2017-05-21 at 09:19.
    Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Earring View Post
    Hi Julf!

    I've finally caught up with you - this is a very interesting concept.

    The discussion at section 5.4 in the AES paper (& the accompanying Fig. 7) got me thinking that clock drift not captured by a jitter measurement might be a rational explanation of the phenomenon that I am (subjectively) experiencing...
    I can't recall what you reported, but I can tell you that in general the clocks of audio products are very accurate and very stable and fall miles within the relatively poor human ability to perceive long-term or short term changes in pitch. That's what changes in clock frequency show up as, changes in pitch.

  9. #329
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    Clock instability

    Quote Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
    I can't recall what you reported, but I can tell you that in general the clocks of audio products are very accurate and very stable and fall miles within the relatively poor human ability to perceive long-term or short term changes in pitch. That's what changes in clock frequency show up as, changes in pitch.
    Morning Arny!

    I hear you & I don't disagree with your statements, but it could still be somewhat analogous to the analogue wow & flutter which you have yourself reported as finding particularly irritating: for myself I found that I was able to "suspend my disbelief" sufficiently once I got my LP12/Ittok LVII/Koetsu (first Black then Rosewood Signature) source. I had previously owned a Transcriptors (later Mitchell Engineering) Hydraulic Reference deck with an SME 3009 arm & a Shure V15 MkIII cartridge (I'm sure you remember the '70s too) & the difference was like night & day. The Koetsu's tracked at 2g (which would formerly have been regarded as excessive) but managed not to grind through my vinyl by virtue of a very sexy stylus tip shape despite the low compliance of the cartridge which I accommodated by fitting a (Linn supplied) additional counterweight to the Ittok. This arm has precision ball-bearings (how well these have survived my travels in the past 30 years remains to be seen) rather than the knife edge bearings of the 3009, & the Shure V15 was of course a high compliance cartridge (as I recall, it would track quite happily at around 0.8g), so the newer design was a complete sea-change. Although the extrovert Ivor Tiefenbaum made much of the revolutionary qualities of his kit, the LP12 is really a derivative from the original AR turntable design from at least 10 years earlier, & Linn contracted out their precision engineering work. I believe the more recent SME turntables & Mk.V arm would now be superior (but a little bit more expensive ) - they at least do their own production in-house & use the heavy isolated belt drive concept for their decks & have switched to the precision all-round bearing approach for their arms. I do intend to hook up my old kit again now that I have a moving coil cartridge preamplifier (included in the Brokkly DAC) just for old time's sake: however, I'm sure you'd still hate it if you heard it! , ...

    I wondered if you had any direct comments on the research paper that I referenced (which may or may not prove to be good science depending on whether the claimed results are confirmed independently). The test results were intriguing if valid. Correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe Shannon's sampling theory proof based on Nyquist's earlier conjecture (which only concerned Morse code, a digital source) if the sampling frequency is not completely regular is dependent upon the noise components mixed with the signal being "i.i.d." (independent & identically distributed) & that if that is not the case there may be theoretical problems in the interpolation process necessary for the reconstruction of the original analogue signal (I think that the Cheung-Marks Theorem covers an extreme aspect of this, where they show the addition of an arbitrarily small amount of non-i.i.d. noise, such as that arising from quantisation errors, may make the reconstruction process "ill-posed" which is maths jargon for saying it no longer has a unique solution), IOW the precise job that the DAC is attempting, and in particular that suggestions made by Shannon in attempting to generalise his results to irregular sampling intervals are not correct. Even small instabilities might have some effect following this line of thought.

    This is all rather heavy stuff, & I'm guessing that any audible differences would tend to arise in the quiet passages of source material with a high dynamic range where the difference between the signal amplitude & the noise floor is reduced. Just perhaps some people may be attuned to "digital jitter" in this wider sense of including clock drifting inaccuracies, in an analogous way to the fact that you found early CD's (which did have some problems of their own in terms of engineering quality of recording) preferable to analogue, whereas at that stage I definitely preferred my (mature technology) analogue set-up.

    It's just a thought. Obviously we don't capture the full concert hall dynamic range of an orchestra even with our digital recordings, & if we did either the quiet parts would be smothered by ambient noise or the loud parts would make our ears bleed in the context of domestic listening. It's a question of producing a subjectively satisfying illusion of the underlying musical performance ultimately which may leave some "wriggle-room" for individual preferences yet.

    Still staying open minded atm this side of the pond.

    Dave
    Last edited by Golden Earring; 2017-07-29 at 04:16.

  10. #330
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    High altitude phenomena

    Quote Originally Posted by Wombat View Post
    Whatsbestforum fits your agenda pretty well. Are you sure you are not a long term member over there and forgot about it because of all these pills?

    Edit: When we are at it. Mysterious flashes are neither jitter nor aliens. It is ice crystals! https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/05/...asa-satellite/
    Hi Wombat!

    Speaking personally, I can get 5 or even "8 Miles High" with a stiff JD & Coke with ice, so one of those flashes might be one of mine... I go for big slabs rather than crushed ice cos it lasts longer, they do present a horizontal surface when they float!

    Dave
    Last edited by Golden Earring; 2017-05-22 at 11:05. Reason: trying to get max humour/word density coefficient - it's the way you tell 'em

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