View Full Version : Getting the Best out of New SB3
Hi all. having just bought the SB3 Wireless I am now determined to get the best out of it. I have been an audiophile for years and have now decided to join the 21st century so the CD players up for sale and the SB3 duly installed, and mightily impreesed i am too.
Point 1 ....Having surfed the forum for a day or 3 I have sent for a new External PSU rated at 5v dc 4amp with a 20W rating and the appropriate sized connector. I intend to use this with my existing nains IEC cable. Can anyone reassure me that the 20W rating won't be a problem? I assume the unit wont draw any more amps than it needs.
Point 2 ..... Are there any particular tweaks I should do on the squeezecenter to ensure absolute max sound quality is being achieved?
Thanks for listening.
ST.
m1abrams
2009-02-04, 09:32
1. If that is a regulated PSU then it should not be an issue. If at all concerned measure the unloaded voltage of the psu. Unregulated PSU that are used way below their current capacity can output much higher voltages than stated.
2. In squeezecenter make sure that you do not have it set to transcode your music. I think that for wireless clients this may default on.
Biggest thing that can affect sound quality is having good source material. Rip with something like EAC or dbpoweramp (I highly recommend dbpoweramp). Encode your music to a lossless format, for the Squeezebox the best format would be FLAC however if you have a lot of apple gear ALAC may be a better option for you.
Thanks for that. It is a regulated PSU so all should be well. With regard to the Transcode Audio setting, not too sure what that means and I have had a look round the settings menu in Squeezecentre but couldn't see a check box relating to that, can you advise.
ST
Phil Leigh
2009-02-04, 11:21
are you using the analogue or digital outputs (the latter would be into an external DAC)?
I am using the analogue outputs via some fairly esoteric interconnects into the pre-in inputs of an Audiolab 8000A integrated which then feeds an Audiolab 8000P power amp. The sound is very good, not quite up to my CDP which is a modded Arcam Alpha 5 CD just a little lightweight by comparison, the information is all there though and of course there is a good upgrade path (external DAC) for the future.
ST
Thanks for that. It is a regulated PSU so all should be well. With regard to the Transcode Audio setting, not too sure what that means and I have had a look round the settings menu in Squeezecentre but couldn't see a check box relating to that, can you advise.
ST
Just check that bandwidth limiting is set to "no limit" (which it is by default) - the rest of the transcoding settings are under Advanced/File Types and the defaults are fine (and lossless).
Thanks to you who gave advice, everything set up and works well. I have also received the new power supply and can report an appreciable improvement in performance. Basically more of everything, frequency extremes more controlled, bigger more dynamic soundstage. For those who are interested the unit I bought is STONTRONICS - EPA-201D-05 - PSU, DESKTOP, 5V, 4A. I bought it via e-bay from from fullspeedit for a grand total of £17.98 inc p&p, the same unit sells at Farnell for £24.32 + p&p. The only issue i had was a earth loop hum - easily remedied by disconnecting the earth core at the mains plug end of the lead I use.
ST
Phil Leigh
2009-02-05, 10:38
Thanks to you who gave advice, everything set up and works well. I have also received the new power supply and can report an appreciable improvement in performance. Basically more of everything, frequency extremes more controlled, bigger more dynamic soundstage. For those who are interested the unit I bought is STONTRONICS - EPA-201D-05 - PSU, DESKTOP, 5V, 4A. I bought it via e-bay from from fullspeedit for a grand total of £17.98 inc p&p, the same unit sells at Farnell for £24.32 + p&p. The only issue i had was a earth loop hum - easily remedied by disconnecting the earth core at the mains plug end of the lead I use.
ST
hmmm... you shouldn't be getting an earth loop. The SB signal ground is not directly connected to the mains earth. What amp etc are you using?
Audiolab 8000A pre-amp stage - 8000P power amp. All powered via an Olson filtered 4 way and dedicated earth spike wired with Kimber cable. As soon as I replaced the standard sb wallwart with the new psu connected via IEC lead to the mains I got the hum. I think the problem possibly lies in the fact that the 4 way metal box has the kimber kable direct to an earth terminal on the Russ Andrews super socket, as well as all the mains leads being individually earthed. By unearthing the SB it stopped the hum immediately. I can't see it presenting a major problem as it'll still earth via the Phono's anyway.
What do you think?
ST
seanadams
2009-02-05, 17:27
The problem is the aftermarket DC power supply - it is not isolated.
Phil Leigh
2009-02-05, 22:59
ah - I use this one which is isolated:
STONTRONICS
AD-05150R
(Farnell PW00187)
which is a 5V 1.5A supply of different design.
Didn't I read elsewhere on this august forum that upgrading the PSU as above only makes a discernable difference with the analogue outputs on SB Classic?
I'm using digital out (co-ax) to DacMagic - think it's worth it?
Thanks.
Graeme
darrenyeats
2009-02-06, 06:05
Well some people claim it does. I use the 1.5A supply that Phil mentions, with the analogue outs, with no complaints but I can't swear about the difference. I'm pretty sure it hasn't done any harm.
If the 4A is that inexpensive I might go for it and try some blind tests with stock PS vs 1.5A vs 4A to try and nail this issue. I'm sure people would be interested in that report. :)
Also I use the tacima mains filter from Maplin, my comments are the same as for the 1.5A PS.
Darren
Phil Leigh
2009-02-06, 06:19
I can't see the point of using an overrated supply. The SB will only ever draw what it needs and no more (1.5A). It's not like a power amp - there's no need for current delivery headroom, since the current draw is not that dynamic!
seanadams
2009-02-06, 06:23
Didn't I read elsewhere on this august forum that upgrading the PSU as above only makes a discernable difference with the analogue outputs on SB Classic?
Well keep in mind we've now shipped a few different products and different power supplies over the years. After Logi acquired Slim, the 5V 2A Unifive adaptor that came with SLIMP3/SB1/SB2/SB3 was changed to a Logitech branded one from a different manufacturer. Also the US and UK/Euro power supplies used to be different, but now they are the same brick with an interchangeable AC plug. The PS that now comes with SB3 has lower RFI and that was (IMHO) the only defensible reason to prefer an aftermarket supply on the SB3. The notion that somehow a bigger PS will give you more "oomph" is absolute nonsense - the unit is not "starved for electricity".
Also the US and UK/Euro power supplies used to be different, but now they are the same brick with an interchangeable AC plug. The PS that now comes with SB3 has lower RFI and that was (IMHO) the only defensible reason to prefer an aftermarket supply on the SB3. The notion that somehow a bigger PS will give you more "oomph" is absolute nonsense - the unit is not "starved for electricity".
Wow - such illustrious company on this forum, I feel 'ever so 'umble me lord ...
Anyway, my 1 year old SB3 / Classic came with a 5V 2A switched-mode plug-top PSU with interchageable UK / EU connectors, so I guess this is the latest incarnation?
Regarding "extra "oomph" ..." I do think the notion of PSU upgrades is fairly well accepted in hi-fi circles; certainly my Naim Audio gear has hefty external PSUs, even as upgrade options on the CD players and pre-amps throughout the range, and noise / stability / regulation seem to be the goals rather than current capacity. I did notice the difference when I added the Naim XPS PSU to my CDX CD player. It wasn't about "oomph" (that was the power amp upgrade) - more about space, clarity, sparkle, timing, the "lifting of the veil" etc. etc.
Cyrus kit has a similar philosophy, and the (in?)famous SB+ features a particularly high-quality external PSU as well. PSU upgrades on power amps are, of course, rare since a power amp is essentially a big "modulated" PSU.
So I guess the question really is, does moving from the stock switched-mode PSU on a SB Classic / Receiver to a "heftier" (= higher quality?) regulated linear PSU make any discernable difference? And, if so, under what circumstances (e.g digital v analogue outputs, internal / external DAC etc.)?
No criticisms of the stock PSU intended of course (although most things DO have budgetary constraints - Marketing 101 I believe). I've been quite happy with the "as supplied" price /performance of all the Slim kit I've got to date, otherwise I doubt I'd be posting this missive.
But this is an upgrade thread after all ...
If you're still with me - thank you and well done.
Graeme
Phil Leigh
2009-02-06, 10:51
Heftier doesn't mean better. That's not what's in play here.
The reason why Naim and Cyrus PSU upgrades to their pre-amp.line level products work is that they are providing discrete supplies to different parts of the circuitry with additional isolation of noise etc. No extra ooomph involved as you say, just less interaction between stages.
This is why a simple upgrade to the external PSU of the SB won't achieve a similar result. There is only one way in for the supply - through that DC connector on the back. You can put a sub-station into it and it won't make a blind bit of difference since it will always only ever connect via the first regulator in the internal circuit.
The SB+ is different in this respect as it is not constrained by the single connector...
Didn't I read elsewhere on this august forum that upgrading the PSU as above only makes a discernable difference with the analogue outputs on SB Classic?
I'm using digital out (co-ax) to DacMagic - think it's worth it?
Thanks.
Graeme
The stock supply is best for you and you would hear no improvement by wasting money on a PS upgrade. The SB3 is spec'd for a regulated 5VDC minimum 1 Amp power supply. If you have a true Classic with the Logitech logo on the front, it is more then likely that your unit came with a regulated 5VDC minimum of 2 Amps wall wart PS. More then enough for how you are using your Classic.
And even if ones display is at full bright and actively using all the outputs the current draw is just over an Amp 99% of the time. Nobody is going to hear or catch that 1% and beside many owners have the 2A minimum supply anyway. And for all the folks buying after market linear PS for the SB3, I hate to tell you this, but there are switching supplies inside the SB3 after the 5VDC input so why bother.
Can an improved PS improve the SB3? Well of course it can because that is always the first place to improve audio gear by throwing more money at the PS section. The problem is the expense and trouble to directly feed the SB3 with the different voltages needed and disabling the on board switchers. So one would need an external PS box with multiple regulated DC voltages, a cable to carry them, and new power connector on the SB3, disable the internal switchers, and cable the separate voltage needs to the new connector. All of this effort, expense, and work for a slight improvement that many people will probably not even hear because there system is not good enough to hear it anyway.
And oh by the way, some guy named Sean has already done this and done it so well that the difference can be heard on most systems: It's called a Transporter.
Don't waste money adding to the SB3 that is already an above average entry point into the Network Media Player world. I see guys that bought an SB3 and $1500 to $2100 in mods from Boulder, hey a Transporter is only $1999 and no matter what one spends modifying an SB3, its still not a TP at the end of the day.
You might ask what my point is, well its two fold. First don't waste your money adding to a product that is already well above average from the manufacture. Second if you really want a Transporter save your money and buy one, don't throw money at another NMP trying to make it a Transporter.
Phil Leigh
2009-02-06, 11:05
To be clear, the reason I have a replacement PSU is because the original stock PSU I had interfered with my AM radio (this is NOT the current version of the stock PSU). I've never heard any improvement in the SB sound from using it.
Phil, iPhone, Sean et al ...
Your points are well made and I think we're in violent agreement ...
1. from a sound quality perspective, the current PSU is way good enough for the SB Classic but go knock yourself out on an "upgrade" at £20 sterling
2. a better DAC will improve the sound and cost at least £200 sterling + interconnect (which represents more than 100% cost premium as well)
3. if this isn't good enough, buy a Transporter which has all the above (and more) AND just looks the dog's danglies, or an SB+ which apparently has the performance but debateable aesthetics (IMHO)
So I've saved myself about £20 sterling on a PSU then! What am I gonna spend it on ...?
Graeme
darrenyeats
2009-02-06, 13:51
Well my 1.5A PS has an intermittent problem, 99.9% of the time it is fine however. When I do something about it, I may as well jump for the 4A one since it's equally inexpensive.
Like Phil my main concern is RFI. But eventually, I intend to do that blind test and to verify the theory.
Darren
Thanks for all the interest my question has generated. Firstly as a die hard audiophile trying to embrace the new technology may i say how informative the forums are. Secondly and on the subject of PSU difference or no difference. There is much hoodoo around the subject within hi-fi circles and I have no doubt that the main reason for my external psu making any difference at all is because I deliberately purchased one that would allow me to use my rather nice IEC terminated mains lead. That was and remains my only motivator for the change. Over the years I have tried all manner of leads, lotions and potions from Peter Belt to Russ Andrews via Jimmy Hughes. Each time the results have been both subjective and system dependant. The slight disappointment was the hum i got, however experience told me that this was a mains loop of sorts and as i have no electrical knowledge whatsoever the solution as ever was to 'unearth' the offending article, in this case the SB3. Notwithstanding the previous comments concerning the psu not being isolated it seems to have done the trick. I am very satisfied with the sound I get from this device and will no doubt continue to pick your collective brain for many weeks until I am absolutely positive I am getting the best out of this terrific bit of kit!
Once again thanks folks !
ST
Rodney_Gold
2009-02-06, 23:26
As an audiophile , you should consider the SB as a very high quality extremely cheap transport with all your music on it.....
IE use the digital output and get the DAC of your choice if you want substantial improvements over stock rather than spend money modding it
It really isnt a great "audiophile" piece of equipment if used in one box mode.
Yes ... I agree and that is my long term plan .... just need to wait until funds permit and in the meantime will learn all about its functions.
ST
darrenyeats
2009-02-07, 05:49
As an audiophile , you should consider the SB as a very high quality extremely cheap transport with all your music on it.....
IE use the digital output and get the DAC of your choice if you want substantial improvements over stock rather than spend money modding it
It really isnt a great "audiophile" piece of equipment if used in one box mode.
Rodney, I dismissed the SB3 stand-alone after comparison with my audiophile source showed it to be inferior. It was many months later that I got dissatisfied, tried some blind tests and got some surprising results. In fact the blind test didn't tell me about the SB3 stand-alone (it was used as a transport in that test) but it did open up my mind.
When given a chance - using matched levels, which is absolutely and completely essential - and a fresh mind I found the SB3 performs well compared to my old transport/DAC.
I think the issue is that people have a DAC to hand (or active speakers) which they like and they plug in the S/PDIF. I have no argument with that, it is logical. But that means they never really test their assumptions about the SB3 stand-alone. Certainly very few try living with the SB3 day in day out to see what it can do, because they don't have to! We're back to what Pat said on the other thread about beliefs...
For example, it may be that the switchmode PS that came with my SB3 sounds absolutely fine. I wouldn't know because I have a linear one which I use instead, because I believe it produces less RFI. I've done very little listening with the switchmode PS and that was long ago. I feel I don't have the time to uncover knowledge which I believe will be academic. But that is no fault of the switchmode PS. :)
Darren
Rodney_Gold
2009-02-07, 12:01
Iv'e actually used the SB and the TP's analog outputs into various headphone amps , using various Ic's all thru either Sen 650 or Sen 600 cans. I find the TP's dac rather lifeless and clinical and the Sb3's a little harsher and less "airy" compared to lets say my Jolida Jd100 used as a source. I have tried various dacs which I have borrowed in this regard too. I never level matched but the differences were discernable in respects that the level matching wouldnt have revealed , for EG the TP was definately extreme LF bass shy and had less "air" than the other dacs or the CDP at any level I listened at.
Point is , I actually use the SB these days as the source for my headphone amp as it convenient , small and cheap and the differences in spending vast sums more on a digital cable and dac were not important to me. I have changed from an anal hardcore audiophile back to a more fogiving music lover.
... I have changed from an anal hardcore audiophile back to a more forgiving music lover.
Well said that man! I too am trying to be less anal about it all these days. But I've still got CDX/XPS/52/SCap/135/135/NAT05 = 7 boxes + a whole mess of cables, when I'm sure a SuperNait would suit me just fine now (and I wouldn't even need the the DacMagic either).
Anyone want a shed-load of classic Naim kit?
Thank God I get out more these days ...
So good night from the land where wine is cheaper than milk (and somewhat more enjoyable).
Well my 1.5A PS has an intermittent problem, 99.9% of the time it is fine however. When I do something about it, I may as well jump for the 4A one since it's equally inexpensive.
Like Phil my main concern is RFI. But eventually, I intend to do that blind test and to verify the theory.
Darren
The issue is that more amps for cheap is a bad bad way to go. These cheap higher amp Power Supplies are not isolated supplies and cause more problems. If you are going to get another wall wart type supply, order the newer version from Logitech. If your going for 3Amp or more, pay the big bucks and get a linear supply. It will not improve anything on you unit, but it also will not add any bad problems or hum!
Most of the higher amp wall wart 5VDC units were not designed to run audio gear or DACs so no care was taken for isolation to prevent hum and nothing is done to eliminate RFI and EMI produced by the switcher. If your looking to down grade your SB and your audio experience, then by all means get one of those 4 amp Power Supplies.
Phil Leigh
2009-02-08, 00:31
The issue is that more amps for cheap is a bad bad way to go. These cheap higher amp Power Supplies are not isolated supplies and cause more problems. If you are going to get another wall wart type supply, order the newer version from Logitech. If your going for 3Amp or more, pay the big bucks and get a linear supply. It will not improve anything on you unit, but it also will not add any bad problems or hum!
Most of the higher amp wall wart 5VDC units were not designed to run audio gear or DACs so no care was taken for isolation to prevent hum and nothing is done to eliminate RFI and EMI produced by the switcher. If your looking to down grade your SB and your audio experience, then by all means get one of those 4 amp Power Supplies.
The one I use is a large, heavy freestanding (in-line) linear supply, not a "wall-wart". I have nothing against switching PSU's per se... I have a very nice one in my pre-amp!. It's all down to the implementation. The stock TACT PSU for example is not very good...likewise the one in my SKY HD box.
darrenyeats
2009-02-08, 04:13
The issue is that more amps for cheap is a bad bad way to go. These cheap higher amp Power Supplies are not isolated supplies and cause more problems. If you are going to get another wall wart type supply, order the newer version from Logitech. If your going for 3Amp or more, pay the big bucks and get a linear supply. It will not improve anything on you unit, but it also will not add any bad problems or hum!
Most of the higher amp wall wart 5VDC units were not designed to run audio gear or DACs so no care was taken for isolation to prevent hum and nothing is done to eliminate RFI and EMI produced by the switcher. If your looking to down grade your SB and your audio experience, then by all means get one of those 4 amp Power Supplies.
iPhone, aha! I assumed the 4A Stontronics posted in this thread was a new beefier version of my 1.5A Stontronics linear, regulated PS. In retrospect, given the price, I see that was unlikely. That's why I bought the 1.5A PS in the first place - I think yourself, Phil and I agree there is no point buying a bigger switchmode supply. (I accept there may be no point buying a linear regulated one either, but I see it as dependent on the circumstances.) So no 4A for me. Thanks,
Darren
Interesting to note in this thread that the general impression seems to be that I bought the 4A psu deliberately. Not so ... It was merely the only one with an IEC mains inlet that I could find at the time. If I could have found one with the same rating as the wallwart psu then i would no doubt have bought that. I do agree with the general concensus that a higher amp psu is not necessary, indeed in some applications a beefier psu can actually sound overblown and slower.
ST
Too bad the CIAudio VDC-SB is so pricey at $259 USD:
http://www.ciaudio.com/vdc_sb.html
Too bad the CIAudio VDC-SB is so pricey at $259 USD:
http://www.ciaudio.com/vdc_sb.html
The stock supply matches linear power supplies when tested with Audiodiffmaker, as does a 5 amp HP 5.001 VDC instrument power supply as does a 6 VDC battery. No difference whatsoever! Don’t waste your money on buying new power supplies for the Duet or SB3, period! Phil Leigh as also done some power supply testing and had the exact same results, no difference.
The stock supply matches linear power supplies when tested with Audiodiffmaker, as does a 5 amp HP 5.001 VDC instrument power supply as does a 6 VDC battery. No difference whatsoever! Don’t waste your money on buying new power supplies for the Duet or SB3, period! Phil Leigh as also done some power supply testing and had the exact same results, no difference.
Well, there is another way the psu can play a role. In early threads in here i described a problem with the switching psu interferring with my monoblocks. It produced a tiny bith of hum. A linear psu i had around didn't.
Short after i found the problem in wrong grounding when i mounted my monoblocks in aluminium tubes. After correcting that the hum was gone.
So there may be a chance that switching psus interfer with other things more easily than proper linear builts.
Well, there is another way the psu can play a role. In early threads in here i described a problem with the switching psu interferring with my monoblocks. It produced a tiny bith of hum. A linear psu i had around didn't.
Short after i found the problem in wrong grounding when i mounted my monoblocks in aluminium tubes. After correcting that the hum was gone.
So there may be a chance that switching psus interfer with other things more easily than proper linear builts.
Very true and I had a single sentence in there about it that I left over on my spell checker when I cut it, Doh. Basically, if one has a ground loop problem because of other equipment some of the isolated transformer aftermarket linear power supplies can solve the hum without one actually looking for the real solution which is eliminating the ground loop in the first place.
I believe I included the hum issue in some of the other PS posts I have left tonight. Thanks for catching that. But again it's a bandaid for a greater problem that still needs solved: eliminate the ground loops.
NewBuyer
2009-02-26, 02:21
...Basically, if one has a ground loop problem because of other equipment some of the isolated transformer aftermarket linear power supplies can solve the hum...
That is interesting - I did not know this. I wonder how using a linear supply (instead of switching) can solve groundloop issues?
cdmackay
2009-02-26, 05:04
hi all,
Are there any recommendations for a sensibly priced Linear Power Supply
for my new SB Receiver, please?
I'm currently running it through Quad 34/606, if that's relevant. Will I
even notice a difference?
anything else I should be considering...?
thanks very much indeed.
best regards,
calum.
Phil Leigh
2009-02-26, 05:11
That is interesting - I did not know this. I wonder how using a linear supply (instead of switching) can solve groundloop issues?
If there is no earth connection on the linear... :)
Phil Leigh
2009-02-26, 05:27
hi all,
Are there any recommendations for a sensibly priced Linear Power Supply
for my new SB Receiver, please?
I'm currently running it through Quad 34/606, if that's relevant. Will I
even notice a difference?
anything else I should be considering...?
thanks very much indeed.
best regards,
calum.
Yes - I suggest you keep the money in your wallet :)
Unless your stock supply is faulty there is no point in changing it for a plug&play replacement to achieve better sound quality IMO.
Others MMV
NewBuyer
2009-02-26, 14:49
If there is no earth connection on the linear... :)
Hi Phil,
Sorry to be dense - do you mean there is no 3rd prong (safety ground) on the linear supply's power cord, but instead just hot and neutral?
Hi Phil,
Sorry to be dense - do you mean there is no 3rd prong (safety ground) on the linear supply's power cord, but instead just hot and neutral?
A two prong only factory plug (not one that is cut or broken off by the end user) or a proper isolation transformer setup inside the linear power supply without any center taps to ground.
One of the best temporary tests (and I do mean temporary) to find what might be causing ground loops, is to use one of those plugs from the hardware store that takes a 3 prong plug to a two prong plug. These are harder to find now because homes have been required for years to have 3 prong outlets. By placing the plug on the end of the cord (as long as only one item of equipment is causing the problem) and plugging it temporarily back in, one can quickly find the equipment causing the problem.
There are commercial products with will isolate ones equipment from ground loops as well as almost any lightening strike also, such as a 220 RGPC Sub-Station. This unit uses two hot phases to make 120 for ones equipment. There is no ground so there can't be ground loops and this eliminates any path for lightening to ground as well making it high unlikely that lightening would seek that route. The added bonus is additional available current headroom and the near elimination of line sag as two phases are involved. In most households, both phases sagging at the same time is rare.
Phil Leigh
2009-02-26, 20:30
Hi Phil,
Sorry to be dense - do you mean there is no 3rd prong (safety ground) on the linear supply's power cord, but instead just hot and neutral?
Yes - as iPhone explains...
cdmackay
2009-02-27, 10:39
Phil Leigh wrote:
> Yes - I suggest you keep the money in your wallet :)
> Unless your stock supply is faulty there is no point in changing it for
> a plug&play replacement to achieve better sound quality IMO.
thanks Phil :)
Phil Leigh
2009-02-27, 10:42
Phil Leigh wrote:
> Yes - I suggest you keep the money in your wallet :)
> Unless your stock supply is faulty there is no point in changing it for
> a plug&play replacement to achieve better sound quality IMO.
thanks Phil :)
Juat my opinion - but these are hard times!
NewBuyer
2009-02-27, 19:13
Thanks iPhone and Phil, I had somehow overlooked the "isolated transformer" part of the previous post. :)
That RGPC Sub-Station looks like a nice item...
NaimSqueezer
2009-02-28, 15:16
Hello fellows, greetings from crumbling germany,
I just bought a SBC. A few remarks:
First, the SBC power supply generates a voltage of 15,xx versus ground.
I grounded it at chinch connectors, on recommendation of the Hifi dealer, because the
amplifier itself by intended design wasn't grounded on connectors.
So far, by doing so I got rid of the significant hum the SBC created before.
Second, people here and elsewhere are discussing power supplys. Why not trying
the best supply first? That is, four (four, not more. And no non-rechargable batteries please...) NIMHs.
This provides 5,6 Volts unconnected, and ~5,0 Volts connected - Voltage sinking slowly.
I tried that, and for now, the SBC didn't explode. The SBC starts at 5,10 and stops working at 4,30-4,20 Volts here.
It sucks up 700 up to 900 milliamps (0,7 to 0,9 Amps), depending on display brightness. The current varies slightly all time.
So if you try NIMHs first, you can easily test wether this or that superior power supply will make a difference for sound quality.
If you got some spare time, you may play around with an adittional fast fuse (probably 1,x to 2,0 amps?, dont know), and some condensers for
even smoother current, if possible at all. I doubt there is any considerable noise in NIMH voltage.
Dont forget: The plug must be (+) inside, and (-) outside.
And yes, i think it sounds better, smoother, fuller, but hear yourself wether this is true. Whatever, i doubt an expensive supply
will cut the mustard, so a reasonable priced one should do. Check the remaining ripple voltage, should be lowest, probably 10-25mV,
not more. Dont know wether adding some condensers to the supply will help. maybe even that
can tweak the standard supply, but beforehand make sure supply's voltage (5,10 Volts unconnected)doesnt rise from that.
Quick test result, a 470 uF condenser was lying around, connecting parallel to unconnected supply, still 5,10 Volts reading, condenser solo reading 5,09 Volts.
Seems it's stabilized sort of?
Hello fellows, greetings from crumbling germany,
I just bought a SBC. A few remarks:
First, the SBC power supply generates a voltage of 15,xx versus ground.
I grounded it on recommendation of the Hifi dealer, because the
amplifier itself by intended design wasn't grounded on connectors.
So far, by doing so I got rid of the significant hum the SBC created before.
Second, people here are discussing power supplys. Why not trying
the best supply first? That is, four (four, not more. And no non-rechargable batteries please...) NIMHs.
This provides 5,6 Volts unconnected, and ~5,0 Volts connected - Voltage sinking slowly.
I tried that, and for now, the SBC didn't explode. The SBC starts at 5,10 and stops working at 4,30-4,20 Volts here.
It sucks up 700 up to 900 milliamps (0,7 to 0,9 Amps), depending on display brightness. The current varies slightly all time.
So if you try NIMHs first, you can easily test wether this or that superior power supply will make a difference for sound quality.
If you got some spare time, you may play around with an adittional fast fuse (probably 1,x to 2,0 amps), and some condensers.for
even smoother current, if possible at all. I doubt there is any considerable noise in NIMH voltage.
Dont forget: The plug must be + inside, and - outside.
And yes, i think it sounds better, smoother, fuller, but hear yourself wether this is true. Whatever, i doubt an expensive supply
will cut the mustard, so a reasonable priced one should do. Check the remaining ripple voltage, should be lowest, probably 10-25mV,
not more. Dont know wether adding some condensers to the supply will help. maybe even that
can tweak the standard supply, but beforehand make sure supply's voltage (5,10 Volts here)doesnt rise from that.
Hello and welcome to the Forums. I am assuming that by SBC you mean SB Classic, not SB Controller. Most of us use SB3 for the short of SB Classic or call it Classic. Most use SBC and SBR to mean Controller and Receiver of the Duet.
Speaking of the SB3 (Classic), Phil has tested many power supplies as I have. I have even used gel, dry, and wet batteries. The test results were the same every time no matter which type of proper Power Source was used when testing with the audio testing software mentioned in this thread. In listening tests, I heard no differences. One advantage to the 6 volt battery is no possible ground loops. But it is just as easy to find the problem causing the ground loop and eliminate it.
Most of these finding are in this thread and it might be helpful to browse back through the whole thread.
Again welcome and enjoy your Squeezebox!
NaimSqueezer
2009-03-01, 13:05
Why mentioning 6 Volts batteries, it's supply is 5 Volts.
http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm
This is the real thing we need.
seanadams
2009-03-01, 21:41
Hello fellows, greetings from crumbling germany,
I just bought a SBC. A few remarks:
First, the SBC power supply generates a voltage of 15,xx versus ground.
I grounded it at chinch connectors, on recommendation of the Hifi dealer, because the
amplifier itself by intended design wasn't grounded on connectors.
So far, by doing so I got rid of the significant hum the SBC created before.
What do you mean by SBC? SBC is forum shorthand for the controller, and SBR is the receiver. Together these are sold as "Duet". You are talking about SBR, right? Or maybe SB3 - anyway, the following comments apply to SB3 as well as SBR:
The measured voltage to ground... that is not what you think it is. The Squeezebox power supply is isolated, and this by design allows the device to "float" relative to earth ground. This is a GOOD THING in terms of preventing ground loops. If you measure some voltage relative to ground it is not meaningful - it's at a high impedance and the only reason it's there is because there's nothing "anchoring" the device at any particular reference. This happens (and _should_ happen) only via the signal cable when you connect it to the amplifier.
If you find a reduction of hum when connecting SBR to earth ground, this indicates a problem with the amplifier. If the amplifier is not using the shield of its RCA connectors as a reference for the signal ground, that is a serious defect! Earth ground from the amp's perspective is not relevant.
I am guessing from your handle that you have a Naim amp. I have heard of all manner of grounding malfunctions with Naim but hardly any other brand. I suspect there is a designer there with a very peculiar view of how grounding is supposed to work...
NaimSqueezer
2009-05-03, 02:25
If you find a reduction of hum when connecting SBR to earth ground, this indicates a problem with the amplifier. If the amplifier is not using the shield of its RCA connectors as a reference for the signal ground, that is a serious defect! Earth ground from the amp's perspective is not relevant.
I am guessing from your handle that you have a Naim amp. I have heard of all manner of grounding malfunctions with Naim but hardly any other brand. I suspect there is a designer there with a very peculiar view of how grounding is supposed to work...
Yes, your guess was right, and i agree with that remark on a peculiarity.
NAIM for whatever reason decided to have ground only in it's cd player. Maybe it's a rare approach to prevent hums in combination of devices, maybe some new trick of how to make people purchase more. For sure here's a nice source of problems for people who don't know or forget about this.
So maybe you are right, and the hum sound was caused by the amp lacking ground, while the Squeezebox pretended to be the culprit by showing quite high potential. As soon as RCAs got ground, the hum was gone.
timequest
2009-05-04, 19:01
Too bad the CIAudio VDC-SB is so pricey at $259 USD:
http://www.ciaudio.com/vdc_sb.html
Interesting… I can't help but tweak, and this is a relatively inexpensive tweak in the audiophile game. Will this device mate well with a SB Duet - is it the same as an SB3?
[Addendum]....Actually, I just went to their website and I see that it is the VDC 9.0 that is recommended with the Duet. Why is this?
Just hook it up, connect it to an outboard dac, and away you go...I wouldnt waste any money on any other "upgrades".
Phil Leigh
2009-05-05, 10:07
Interesting… I can't help but tweak, and this is a relatively inexpensive tweak in the audiophile game. Will this device mate well with a SB Duet - is it the same as an SB3?
[Addendum]....Actually, I just went to their website and I see that it is the VDC 9.0 that is recommended with the Duet. Why is this?
The duet needs 9v but the SB needs 5v. Anyway, there is no point in using an aftermarket supply like the CI one when inside the SB is a switching supply...
Spend the money on your favourite DAC instead.
timequest
2009-05-05, 11:46
The duet needs 9v but the SB needs 5v. Anyway, there is no point in using an aftermarket supply like the CI one when inside the SB is a switching supply...
Spend the money on your favourite DAC instead.
So it is flawed reasoning to say that the stock unit may cause noise contaminants due to it being a switching supply – when in fact, the SB utilized an internal switching supply anyway?
How about this then…from a technical perspective, is there any validity to the argument that a “better” power source (i.e.: less distortion) will potentially produce less distortion (i.e.: noise contaminants) in a device such as the SB/Duet utilizing internal switching supplies?
Phil Leigh
2009-05-05, 12:06
So it is flawed reasoning to say that the stock unit may cause noise contaminants due to it being a switching supply – when in fact, the SB utilized an internal switching supply anyway?
How about this then…from a technical perspective, is there any validity to the argument that a “better” power source (i.e.: less distortion) will potentially produce less distortion (i.e.: noise contaminants) in a device such as the SB/Duet utilizing internal switching supplies?
No, not really. There is no law of the universe that requires switching PSU's to be "a bad thing". Several high-end manufacturers use them...
More importantly, both myself and iPhone have conducted tests using AudioDiffMaker on a wide variety of power supplies (including dry cells) and found no discernible difference. To REALLY make a difference, one would have to dissect the circuit which is what the SB+ does. I'm prepared to believe that this will improve the analogue output a little (but I haven't heard one). However, I do not believe it will make much difference to the digital output.
timequest
2009-05-05, 12:37
No, not really. There is no law of the universe that requires switching PSU's to be "a bad thing". Several high-end manufacturers use them...
More importantly, both myself and iPhone have conducted tests using AudioDiffMaker on a wide variety of power supplies (including dry cells) and found no discernible difference. To REALLY make a difference, one would have to dissect the circuit which is what the SB+ does. I'm prepared to believe that this will improve the analogue output a little (but I haven't heard one). However, I do not believe it will make much difference to the digital output.
This is why I love this forum. Thank you, Phil Leigh. The fact that you have tested this "theory" is quite valid to me.
You know, it's the "audiophile" in me that "wants" it to be a great tweak (this can be a sick hobby). We've all spend more than a few hundred dollars on tweaking cables, damping devices, power cords, etc. At $279 the CI PS is so attainable it makes it hard to resist - even though I realize it is likely to make zero difference. Is this like neurosis!?
Phil Leigh
2009-05-05, 12:40
This is why I love this forum. Thank you, Phil Leigh. The fact that you have tested this "theory" is quite valid to me.
You know, it's the "audiophile" in me that "wants" it to be a great tweak (this can be a sick hobby). We've all spend more than a few hundred dollars on tweaking cables, damping devices, power cords, etc. At $279 the CI PS is so attainable it makes it hard to resist - even though I realize it is likely to make zero difference. Is this like neurosis!?
I agree. Invest the savings in a good DAC and a 1.5m coax SPDIF cable...
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