SB3 + Vandersteen 2Ce - NEED AMP!!!

[giga]

Can anybody suggest a good amplifier to go with the Vandersteen 2Ce? I have the speakers and will get the SB3 as a source. Later I may (or maynot) get a DAC, or the DAC could be included in the AMP. Don't care as long as it is simple, sounds good, drives well my Vandies and cost less than 1K (new or eBay).

THANKS!

[crooner]

The 2Ce's love power. It's gonna be hard to find something decent for them under 1K. Try to get a McCormack DNA series, perhaps an older model, with at least 100 watts per channel. The Belles 150A seems to be another good option around your price range.

Anything cheaper than this will be a sonic compromise.

Try Audiogon for some good deals...

[PhilNYC]

I'd take a look at the Dussan DS99 solid state integrated amp. At $500, it's hard to beat...

[crooner]

I was checking out the Dussun (correct spelling) here :

http://store.acousticsounds.com/browse_detail.cfm?Title_ID=33713&section=equipment

Looks like a fairly impressive piece of equipment at the price. It is also quite minimalistic (no tone controls or balance), which is something I particularly like.

Given the excellent results I've been having with my chinese made Lite Audio DAC60, this integrated might indeed be a revelation. Succesful integration with the Vandies remains to be seen, so a "home trial" period would be recommended.

The original poster did not specify any preamp so I'm guessing he plans to use the SB3 directly into the amp. In such a case, it's better to have some sort of attenuator in the analog domain. An integrated amp would provide this in a cost effective way...

[giga]

Crooner & Phil, thanks for the Infos.
To clarify I would prefer an Integrated. I assume this is the simplest way to connect the SB. I was looking at a Naim i5 on eBay, which got good review. However it's true it's rated at 50w only... not enough?

[crooner]

50 watts are not going to cut it. Unless you have a fairly small room and/or listen to classical/jazz at late night listening levels. You might also get away with less power by using a powered sub like the Vandersteen 2W series...

Crooner & Phil, thanks for the Infos.
To clarify I would prefer an Integrated. I assume this is the simplest way to connect the SB. I was looking at a Naim i5 on eBay, which got good review. However it's true it's rated at 50w only... not enough?

[Skunk]

www.audioclassics.com (affiliated only as satisfied cust) sells used Mcintosh amps that 'meet or exceed rated specs'. Speaking of specs, the newer amps (non tube anyway) list .005% THD throughout the 20-20k spectrum at full rated power. To me that seems an order of magnitude better than what's listed for the Dussun at it's full rated power, which unless I misread is a tube like <1%(?)

[totoro]

My audio physic tempo 4s have pretty similar specs, except they're lower impedance, so perhaps a little harder to drive.

My McCormack dna .5 drives them with ease. You can pick one of these up on audiogon for ~500.

There are lots of good amps you can get used in that range. You also see the odd home-brew ucd 400 amp selling there for ~650. I'd bet some of the more knowledgable people here could suggest a whole pile of really good used amps in this price range (hint, hint :)).

You don't really need an integrated. You can use the volume control of the sb3 with a pair of attenuators as "insurance".

Here're a couple examples from audiogon:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1173753737
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1173714176
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1173582278
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1173579996

Just in case someone thinks I'm a solid state fundamentalist: I'm not, but I don't feel qualified to give good recommendations for them. Someone who knows about them can do that. :)

[crooner]

The Dussun is probably a low feedback design. Those ultra low THD figures are usually the result of tons and tons of negative feedback.

Did you get a McIntosh amp? What model?

www.audioclassics.com (affiliated only as satisfied cust) sells used Mcintosh amps that 'meet or exceed rated specs'. Speaking of specs, the newer amps (non tube anyway) list .005% THD throughout the 20-20k spectrum at full rated power. To me that seems an order of magnitude better than what's listed for the Dussun at it's full rated power, which unless I misread is a tube like <1%(?)

[Skunk]

The Dussun is probably a low feedback design. Those ultra low THD figures are usually the result of tons and tons of negative feedback.

Did you get a McIntosh amp? What model?

Thanks for more than a curt 'specs don't tell the whole story' response, I'll keep that in mind when looking at amp THD specs.

Yeah I got a Mcintosh amp from them, but it's for car audio :p It has the powergaurd feature and is built in Binghampton though. Combined with their non-amplified dual 20 bit burr brown cd player (didn't splurge for the external d/a converter but did get the 6 disc transport) the utter lack of distortion is shocking, given the environment.

I've wan'tI wasn't bowled over by Mcintosh demos with B&W or Paradigm at seperate shops, but for some reason had a lingering meme regarding the compatibility of Vandy and Mcintosh, so I went out on a limb with the suggestion- having never heard them together.

[crooner]

Yeah, THD was the key spec back in the 1970s and 80s. Manufacturers were in a race to have the best numbers so to speak. Turns out Ottala demostrated that excessive feedback was detrimental to sound quality (smearing transient response). A new parameter called "TIM" or Transient Intermodulation Distortion, was discovered.

Some people forego feedback all together. I particularly find small amounts of feedback necessary for the best bandwidth with proper amplifier stability.

Rather than super low THD, one should look for an amplifier that clips gracefully with plenty of clean power right up to the clipping point (generally measured at 1 kHz).

I was going to recommend Audio Research tube amps, since Mr. Vandersteen uses them to demo his speakers, but most models are out of the poster's budget. However, with some patience he can try to get something like a Classic 60 (60 strong tube watts) for $1K or so...


Thanks for more than a curt 'specs don't tell the whole story' response, I'll keep that in mind when looking at amp THD specs.

Yeah I got a Mcintosh amp from them, but it's for car audio :p It has the powergaurd feature and is built in Binghampton though. Combined with their non-amplified dual 20 bit burr brown cd player (didn't splurge for the external d/a converter but did get the 6 disc transport) the utter lack of distortion is shocking, given the environment.

I've wan'tI wasn't bowled over by Mcintosh demos with B&W or Paradigm at seperate shops, but for some reason had a lingering meme regarding the compatibility of Vandy and Mcintosh, so I went out on a limb with the suggestion- having never heard them together.

[giga]

You don't really need an integrated. You can use the volume control of the sb3 with a pair of attenuators as "insurance".


Can you suggest a good attenuator?
Also, I am bidding on a B&K ST-140, people seem to like it and some have successfully used it with the Vandies... any opinion on it?

THANK YOU!

[crooner]

The B&K was a long time favorite of Sam Tellig when he was the audio "cheapskate" :-)
It's a good amp but I have heard some units had reliability problems, in other words, they would blow up without warning...

The Dussun, BTW, is in reality a power amp with a built in passive attenuator and source switcher. No active preamp in it.
Reminds me of the old Acurus DIA-100, a good option in the used market and I believe superior to the B&K...

Can you suggest a good attenuator?
Also, I am bidding on a B&K ST-140, people seem to like it and some have successfully used it with the Vandies... any opinion on it?

THANK YOU!

[opaqueice]

You can buy two Behringer A500 amps, reviewed here:

http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=20&blogId=1

for $200/each new, and bi-amp the Vandersteens.

For $800 you could buy four, bridge them, and have one amp per post - with something like 300W of power each.

EDIT - Check that - 500W into 8 Ohms, bridged, according to Behringer:

http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Might be a bit optimistic, but I would think that would be enough juice :-).

[crooner]

Although bi-amping would give you plenty of extra juice, according to Vandersteen bi-wiring gives you similar sonic benefits at a lower cost. In case you still want to bi-amp, I believe he recommends vertical bi-amping, that is, one amp for each speaker. Both amps being the same model, of course.

You can buy two Behringer A500 amps, reviewed here:

http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=20&blogId=1

for $200/each new, and bi-amp the Vandersteens.

For $800 you could buy four, bridge them, and have one amp per post - with something like 300W of power each.

EDIT - Check that - 500W into 8 Ohms, bridged, according to Behringer:

http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Might be a bit optimistic, but I would think that would be enough juice :-).

[pfarrell]

opaqueice wrote:
> You can buy two Behringer A500 amps,

Normally Behringer is not talked about as audiophile level gear. It is
inexpensive
and aimed at the home studio or beginning rock musician market.

But they are always priced aggressively. You may like them


--
Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

[Phil Leigh]

Although bi-amping would give you plenty of extra juice, according to Vandersteen bi-wiring gives you similar sonic benefits at a lower cost. In case you still want to bi-amp, I believe he recommends vertical bi-amping, that is, one amp for each speaker. Both amps being the same model, of course.

At low volumes the benefits of bi-amping may not be particularly apparent (compared to bi-wiring). However at higher volumes the benefits of bi-amping usually become obvious. You may wish to try horizontal bi-amping as an experiment - much depends ont he capabilites/design of the amps (or even the wild and wacky - highly confusing - Linn method of left bass+right treble etc...not for the faint-hearted or easily confused but it can sound better in some setups...allegedly).

[opaqueice]

Although bi-amping would give you plenty of extra juice, according to Vandersteen bi-wiring gives you similar sonic benefits at a lower cost. In case you still want to bi-amp, I believe he recommends vertical bi-amping, that is, one amp for each speaker. Both amps being the same model, of course.

You're right - he really does recommend that:

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm

Frankly - and I don't mean to offend anyone or start a flame war - that's total nonsense. There is precisely as much benefit to bi-wiring as there are differences between cables: 0 = 0 (not counting badly designed or defective ones, for which the effects are negative).

As for horizontal versus vertical bi-amping, I doubt it would matter much, but it's probably true that vertical is a better way to go into passive crossovers. Without an active crossover, probably the only real benefit of bi-amping is if the speakers are so power hungry they would drive a single amp into clipping at high volume. In any case since the A500 is so cheap it's an easy thing to try.

[opaqueice]

Normally Behringer is not talked about as audiophile level gear. It is
inexpensive
and aimed at the home studio or beginning rock musician market.


I'm aware of that. After doing some quite careful (but not terribly extensive) listening tests, I no longer believe there are any audible differences between amplifiers, so long as they are decent quality (as this one is) and are not driven into or close to clipping. I refer you to the review of the A500 I linked to earlier.

[pfarrell]

opaqueice wrote:
> Pat Farrell;170248 Wrote:
>
>> Normally Behringer is not talked about as audiophile level gear.
> I'm aware of that. After doing some quite careful (but not terribly
> extensive) listening tests, I no longer believe there are any audible
> differences between amplifiers, so long as they are decent quality (as
> this one is) and are not driven into or close to clipping.
And you call yourself an audiophile?
Such * <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy>*heresy.

Next you are likely to claim that there is no reason to spend $350,000
for an amp,
such as the one reviewed by TAS a while back.

What about $1000 blocks of wood to hold up your $5000 speaker cables?

--
Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

[tomjtx]

One advantage of anti-cables is semi-rigidity.
I find they sound best when they are bouncing up and down in time to the music.
Since I have a pier and beam foundation I accomplish this by jumping up and down to make the floor vibrate in tempo .
The resulting sound is OMG OMG !!!!!!!!!! incredible.

Or at least it is for those brief moments my ears pass through the sweet spot as I jump up and down.

BTW I have a patented method of Audio grade jumping which produces superior sound.
I will be selling the DVD (or lossless download) for only 20,000.00 US to Slim forum members only !

[opaqueice]

And you call yourself an audiophile?
Such * <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy>*heresy.


It's kind of fun, being a heretic... here are two (of an infinite number available) pieces of actual evidence (!!) to support my heresy:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsunshine%2Bstereo%2Byamaha%2Babx%2Bno usaine%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D501fl6%2524ac3%2540oxy.rust.net%26rnum% 3D1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

EDIT - What's really interesting is that the same sort of test with two sets of speakers, or even of the same speakers located differently, would be totally uninteresting - people would hear the difference and get it right every time, because there really are major differences. And yet this myth about the quality of the system being limited by the quality of the source not only persists, but seems to grow stronger with time, irrespective of common sense, measurements, and overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's not unlike a religion.

As this forum and others illustrate it's hard to avoid getting a little upset about this debate, but in fact I think it's better to take it as a profound and useful lesson in human nature. Religious wars only start when people proselytize...

[JJZolx]

Can anybody suggest a good amplifier to go with the Vandersteen 2Ce? I have the speakers and will get the SB3 as a source. Later I may (or maynot) get a DAC, or the DAC could be included in the AMP. Don't care as long as it is simple, sounds good, drives well my Vandies and cost less than 1K (new or eBay).

Plan on getting an integrated amp unless you want to fiddle with attenuators between the SB/DAC and a power amp. This will also give you the option of controlling the volume with the amp, which you may prefer.

[totoro]

opaqueice wrote:
> Pat Farrell;170248 Wrote:
>
>> Normally Behringer is not talked about as audiophile level gear.
> I'm aware of that. After doing some quite careful (but not terribly
> extensive) listening tests, I no longer believe there are any audible
> differences between amplifiers, so long as they are decent quality (as
> this one is) and are not driven into or close to clipping.
And you call yourself an audiophile?
Such * <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy>*heresy.

Next you are likely to claim that there is no reason to spend $350,000
for an amp,
such as the one reviewed by TAS a while back.

What about $1000 blocks of wood to hold up your $5000 speaker cables?

--
Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

It's not just any old block of wood: it has to be myrtle, and the tree must have been cut down by a virgin on the night of a full moon.

Here's a link to my current favorite instance of this kind of audiophoolery:
http://sixmoons.com/audioreviews/francktchang/resonators.html

As a friend of mine pointed out, if these things, given their size, actually absorbed the amount of energy claimed, they would get so hot they would ignite.....

[Skunk]

It's not just any old block of wood: it has to be myrtle, and the tree must have been cut down by a virgin on the night of a full moon.



There is a whole other camp who believe beech wood, tuned with C37 laquer, is superior: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C&Category_Code=VOLUME&Product_Count=2

If you follow the link back to volume controls from there, you'll see a good passive attenuator.

[totoro]

There is a whole other camp who believe beech wood, tuned with C37 laquer, is superior: http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C&Category_Code=VOLUME&Product_Count=2

If you follow the link back to volume controls from there, you'll see a good passive attenuator.

:)

I had thought the c37 stuff was mostly for speakers. Sigh.

I'm pretty sure I know where that link goes: the infamous knob of death. If we were having this same conversation on audiocircle, we would have already been surrounded by a group of angry subjectivists :).

[opaqueice]

I'm pretty sure I know where that link goes: the infamous knob of death. If we were having this same conversation on audiocircle, we would have already been surrounded by a group of angry subjectivists :).

Maybe it's time to move forums - it's getting dull around here :-). What happened to all our pet subjectivists?

[totoro]

Maybe it's time to move forums - it's getting dull around here :-). What happened to all our pet subjectivists?

I think maybe lafayette caused enough excitement for everyone this weekend. Plus, for all the americans, it's a pretty big football weekend.

If you haven't looked at that sixmoons link I posted, you might get a laugh or two out of it.

[opaqueice]

If you haven't looked at that sixmoons link I posted, you might get a laugh or two out of it.

Been there, done that - I'm getting jaded. Anyway, it's probably for the best - less excitement means less procrastination means more work gets done.

[Phil Leigh]

Actually, Monsieur Ice...I agree with you. The only reason I use the amps I use is that they can take the x-over modules for my speakers. I'm not sure I could tell the difference between them and any really high-end (ie costly - usually) amp. Your basic premise that provided they aren't struggling to deliver the power they are fine works for me.

I find that speakers, then DACS then cables (yeah - I know) make the most difference for me...in that order.

BTW My wife was quite initially rather interested when I spluttered "knob of death, ha ha ha" until I explained further...

[tomjtx]

No one wants to buy my video? :-(

[totoro]

No one wants to buy my video? :-(

Only if it has an appearance by the Infamous Knob of Death(TM).

[tomjtx]

The DVD is coated with that special lacquer , which makes the footfalls seem like....................footfalls................. that's why it's so expensive.

[giga]

Guys,

thanks for all the good leads. I think I'm narrowing down my search to B&K, Rotel or MCCormack.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280068856902&rd=1&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROTEL-POWER-AMPLIFIER-RB-991_W0QQitemZ110077910404QQihZ001QQcategoryZ39783Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

PS: I see the discussion is heating up in between behaviorists that rely only on listening tests, and physicists that rely only on specs and circuits...

[totoro]

Guys,

thanks for all the good leads. I think I'm narrowing down my search to B&K, Rotel or MCCormack.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280068856902&rd=1&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROTEL-POWER-AMPLIFIER-RB-991_W0QQitemZ110077910404QQihZ001QQcategoryZ39783Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

PS: I see the discussion is heating up in between behaviorists that rely only on listening tests, and physicists that rely only on specs and circuits...

If I were choosing out of that group, I think I would go with the mccormack. I've had mine for almost 10 years, and the only problem it's ever given me is that it's fuse holder recently got loose (tough repair: turn it off and let the current drain, open it up, look around, squeeze, and all done :)).

Behaviorists? Argh-- I've now got this horrible mental image of a bunch of middle aged guys in Skinner boxes listening to music.

[Provos]

I use a Musical Fidelity A300 with my 2cei signatures. You made an excellent speaker choice. I purchased my amp new for $1300 a few years ago. This is an integrated dual mono box with that plays well at all volumes with these speakers. Any more power and my ears would blow up, in my 18x14x12 listening room.

I love it. As Sam Tellig predicted in a Stereophile write up, it sounds so good I never wondered what a more expensive amp would sound like. Im too busy listening to the music.

Enjoy.

[giga]

So what's your opinion... can I really go from SB3 to Power Amp w/o a preamp, just by using attenuator? Somebody in the forum advised me to do so and use volume control on SB3. Did you guys try it? Is it good & safe to do so? Moreover, what's an attenuator? (I am considering starting a new thread for this...)

[JJZolx]

So what's your opinion... can I really go from SB3 to Power Amp w/o a preamp, just by using attenuator? Somebody in the forum advised me to do so and use volume control on SB3. Did you guys try it? Is it good & safe to do so? Moreover, what's an attenuator? (I am considering starting a new thread for this...)

The Squeezebox has a nasty habit of loosing its mind every now and again and putting out a shrill bit of random noise at maximum volume. When that happens, you chance blowing something in the playback chain - mostly likely a speaker driver - if you've connected the SB directly into a power amp.

An attenuator is a volume reduction device. You'd use them (one on each channel) based on the maximum output level of the SB and the gain of your amplifier. You'd want to adjust things so that at maximum volume the Squeezebox wouldn't be able to melt your speakers into little puddles of molten metal.

Or, just get an integrated amplifier. It's simpler, and it's more versatile - like having multiple inputs should you decide to connect a tuner, a CD player, a DVD player, or an iPod to your stereo system.

[giga]

The Squeezebox has a nasty habit of loosing its mind every now and again and putting out a shrill bit of random noise at maximum volume. When that happens, you chance blowing something in the playback chain - mostly likely a speaker driver - if you've connected the SB directly into a power amp.


What about using a preamp or an external DAC, would that solve the funky-bit problem ? Also, the only attenuators I found (eBay) are fixed attenuation:

http://electronics.search.ebay.com/attenuator_Home-Audio_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR40QQsacatZ14969

is there something with variable attenuation?

THANKS!

[Robin Bowes]

opaqueice wrote:
> Pat Farrell;170266 Wrote:
>> And you call yourself an audiophile?
>> Such * <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy>*heresy.
>>
>
> It's kind of fun, being a heretic... here are two (of an infinite
> number available) pieces of actual evidence (!!) to support my
> heresy:
>
> http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsunshine%2Bstereo%2Byamaha%2Babx%2Bno usaine%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D501fl6%2524ac3%2540oxy.rust.net%26rnum% 3D1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

While I don't entirely disagree with you (I use Rotel RB-850 power amps,
bought s/h from eBay for peanuts), I don't think an article and a
mailing list thread taken from the Internet constitutes particularly
reliable evidence.

My own feeling is that the "sweet spot" where the law of diminishing
returns kicks in is particularly low down the price/performance curve
for amplifiers and is particularly shallow after that point (i.e. the
price increases quickly, the performance doesn't.)

R.

[totoro]

What about using a preamp or an external DAC, would that solve the funky-bit problem ? Also, the only attenuators I found (eBay) are fixed attenuation:

http://electronics.search.ebay.com/attenuator_Home-Audio_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR40QQsacatZ14969

is there something with variable attenuation?

THANKS!

I have endler attenuators. They're a little home-made looking (ok, a lot:)), and a little expensive for what they are ($65 a pair, I think), but they do the trick.

If you search through threads here and on google, you'll find them fairly easily.

I don't miss my old preamp at all. It's true that I've lost some flexibility, but I don't see going back to any non-computer-based setup any time soon, so it really doesn't bother me.

[totoro]

opaqueice wrote:
> Pat Farrell;170266 Wrote:
>> And you call yourself an audiophile?
>> Such * <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy>*heresy.
>>
>
> It's kind of fun, being a heretic... here are two (of an infinite
> number available) pieces of actual evidence (!!) to support my
> heresy:
>
> http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsunshine%2Bstereo%2Byamaha%2Babx%2Bno usaine%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D501fl6%2524ac3%2540oxy.rust.net%26rnum% 3D1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

While I don't entirely disagree with you (I use Rotel RB-850 power amps,
bought s/h from eBay for peanuts), I don't think an article and a
mailing list thread taken from the Internet constitutes particularly
reliable evidence.

My own feeling is that the "sweet spot" where the law of diminishing
returns kicks in is particularly low down the price/performance curve
for amplifiers and is particularly shallow after that point (i.e. the
price increases quickly, the performance doesn't.)

R.

I tried to stick to used 100w amps that were 1-2k new, have a solid track record in the field, etc.

I'd put my personal cutoff of where value for money drops off in that range new (since I like some power for headroom). The advent of good class d amps is going to lower this for me to something like 1k-1.5 or less soon, I'd guess.

YMMV, of course.

[opaqueice]

While I don't entirely disagree with you (I use Rotel RB-850 power amps,
bought s/h from eBay for peanuts), I don't think an article and a
mailing list thread taken from the Internet constitutes particularly
reliable evidence.

My own feeling is that the "sweet spot" where the law of diminishing
returns kicks in is particularly low down the price/performance curve
for amplifiers and is particularly shallow after that point (i.e. the
price increases quickly, the performance doesn't.)

R.

Well, I'm not in the business of trying to convince anyone, nor do I care how people spend their money. Personally I've done my own experiments with amps, comparing a cheap consumer grade integrated home theater amp to several highly regarded audiophile grade amps. There may have been very subtle differences, but as it was difficult to do a blind test I'm not sure. At best the differences were very subtle, and I suspect there were none at all. Furthermore (as can been seen in the review above) a $200 amp measures as well or better than far more expensive units. Finally, numerous sources (yes, on the internet, but including John Atkinson among others) indicate that in blind tests no one can distinguish between amps, even when tubes are compared to $200 to $15000 amps.

My conclusion? Amplification has been solved. All amps sound the same, so long as they have sufficient power for the job, a flat response, and low distortion. The point of diminishing returns in achieving that is around $200 for a two-channel amp. I think the same probably goes for digital sources - that they're all the same - although I've seen less data and my own investigations were more limited.

In contrast, speakers and rooms and location within the room and DRC and equalization all make huge and clearly audible differences, so that's where I focus money and attention.

[totoro]

Yes, but will a $200 new amp last as long as a well built used one for $500?

My mccormack is a pretty solidly made beast.

That's part of the value for me. And I'm _not_ advocating some super expensive amp :)

[jmourik]

For sure that would make my wife happy! And, I guess, me too. When I
compared the Rotel Rb-1090 to a Classe ca-5200, I think the Classe sounded a
bit better, driving a B&W 803. Very delicate, refined. I ended up getting
the Rotel because it was much cheaper :-) But maybe someday I'd like to
upgrade to Classe. If by that time I still think I hear a difference, of
course...

On 1/15/07, opaqueice <
opaqueice.2kgyxb1168894201 (AT) no-mx (DOT) forums.slimdevices.com> wrote:
>
>
> Robin Bowes;170612 Wrote:
> At best the differences were very subtle,
> and I suspect there were none at all. Furthermore (as can been seen in
> the review above) a $200 amp measures as well or better than far more
> expensive units. Finally, numerous sources (yes, on the internet, but
> including John Atkinson among others) indicate that in blind tests no
> one can distinguish between amps, even when tubes are compared to $200
> to $15000 amps.
>