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atkinsonrr
2006-11-25, 22:50
A while ago, P.Floding started a thread called something like "Moderator where are you?". In it, he makes the following point:
"The biggest problem is the SNR (signal-noise ratio). It is really easy to do wisecracking and post the 50th variation on the same old joke and get a number of your buddies to chime in with their own variations. Soon you have 10 postings like that for every one serious posting. How is anyone going to take the time to read through all this to extract any useful information?
On top of that, when all the wisecracking has a theme that says that audiophiles are idiots (more or less), how friendly will that feel for anyone coming here with their questions?"

Unfortunately, the thread in which P posted the above went down the drain in exactly the same way that P was pointing out. As a result, I feel the need to start this thread just to say I agree with P on the problem and on the effect.

I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring points of view.

I can say posting in this forum feels like trying to have a friendly game in a playground where a handful of self-congratulating bullies have taken over the "turf". I choose not to offer my questions, thoughts or insights much in this forum. Not because I'm insecure in my ability to take care of myself on the playground and not because I am insecure in my beliefs and feelings. I choose not to participate because I simply dont feel it offers me enough benefit for the cost in time or emotional energy I would expend.

I think the only people who would keep coming back to such a playground are those that feel they must prove something to the bullies. Indeed, for this reason, it seems that without intervention, this forum is fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

totoro
2006-11-25, 23:16
A while ago, P.Floding started a thread called something like "Moderator where are you?". In it, he makes the following point:
"The biggest problem is the SNR (signal-noise ratio). It is really easy to do wisecracking and post the 50th variation on the same old joke and get a number of your buddies to chime in with their own variations. Soon you have 10 postings like that for every one serious posting. How is anyone going to take the time to read through all this to extract any useful information?
On top of that, when all the wisecracking has a theme that says that audiophiles are idiots (more or less), how friendly will that feel for anyone coming here with their questions?"

Unfortunately, the thread in which P posted the above went down the drain in exactly the same way that P was pointing out. As a result, I feel the need to start this thread just to say I agree with P on the problem and on the effect.

I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring points of view.

I can say posting in this forum feels like trying to have a friendly game in a playground where a handful of self-congratulating bullies have taken over the "turf". I choose not to offer my questions, thoughts or insights much in this forum. Not because I'm insecure in my ability to take care of myself on the playground and not because I am insecure in my beliefs and feelings. I choose not to participate because I simply dont feel it offers me enough benefit for the cost in time or emotional energy I would expend.

I think the only people who would keep coming back to such a playground are those that feel they must prove something to the bullies. Indeed, for this reason, it seems that without intervention, this forum is fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.


Hmm... from my recent experience, P Floding himself is a self-congratulating bully who thinks he can arbitrate what audiophilia is, and the mockery occurred as a way for people to deal with someone who was behaving like a troll.

I tried to engage in a reasoned discussion with him on a parallel thread that went down in flames, and it didn't work. I could have walked away, but then I would have let his bullying succeed, so I didn't. He was uncivil almost from the very beginning, and squealed loudly when I finally lost patience and snapped back.

Just goes to show how different people's perceptions can be, and how hard a job moderating this kind of forum can be.

pfarrell
2006-11-25, 23:20
atkinsonrr wrote:
> I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring
> points of view.

It is really simple. Folks interested in the topic have to make it
a good place to discuss the topic.

This is true of all open forums, mailing lists, usenet groups, etc.

> it seems that without intervention, this forum is
> fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

Yes, but to quote Pogo: we have met the enemy and he is us.
There is no one to intervene. We have to clean up our act, or
it will die. I've seen it happen many times over the 16 years or
so that I've been playing with usenet, Compuserv, etc.

The simple fact is that no moderator can exist. It is too much work,
and too subjective for any sane person to volunteer. No one at
SlimDevices is going to spend the time, they all have jobs to do.

So as Marion Barry said about another topic, get used to it.
Clean up or die.

Of course, one could argue that expecting some 'moderator' to straighten
things out is impractical and itself a waste of bandwidth. These days of
widespread broadband, cable, DSL and FIOS, the concept of wasting
bandwidth may be obsolete, but those old timers think it was and is
a valuable concept. Tragedy of the commons and all that.

Audiophile are probably more susceptible as a group than many others,
because by definition, audiophiles care about things most people do not
consider important. Most care passionately, often with a religious
fervor. Which obviously opens a door for wise cracks, jokes, and insults.

Some of it may even be justified. We believe that Bose sound systems
sound terrible. We believe that all amplifiers do not sound alike. We
believe that as good as a SqueezeBox sounds, it could sound better.
And we may believe that even the Transporter is not the end of the line,
so we can think of mods and hacks and a Transporter 2.

-- altho I personally believe that speaker positioning and room
treatment are much more important than most of the tweaks that
audiophiles obsess over.

So clean up your act. This means you. Everyone. Period.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html

tomjtx
2006-11-25, 23:27
A, I just have to respond to this.
I dont think there was a 10 to 1 ratio PRIOR to P's thread. A lot of the humor was a reaction to his "apparent" lack of humor and what seemed to me to be a call for censoreship.
I think many people dished out more humor in response which I personally feel was very appropriate .
P also seemed to assume that most the humorists were objectivists which is not the case for me.
It seems to me P was offended by some previous postings and possibly lumped all the jokesters together. I dont think anyone was denigrating audiophiles.But we sure were laughing at them. By definition that means I was also laughing at myself .
I look on that as healthy rather than a problem.
I strongly feel that people shoud be able to post what they want and communicate how they want. Humor, sarcasm, irony or stone cold seriousness.

P has sent a few barbs my way in response and that's fine with me (as long as he doesn't tell my girlfriend:-)

totoro
2006-11-25, 23:28
atkinsonrr wrote:
> I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring
> points of view.

It is really simple. Folks interested in the topic have to make it
a good place to discuss the topic.

This is true of all open forums, mailing lists, usenet groups, etc.

> it seems that without intervention, this forum is
> fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

Yes, but to quote Pogo: we have met the enemy and he is us.
There is no one to intervene. We have to clean up our act, or
it will die. I've seen it happen many times over the 16 years or
so that I've been playing with usenet, Compuserv, etc.

The simple fact is that no moderator can exist. It is too much work,
and too subjective for any sane person to volunteer. No one at
SlimDevices is going to spend the time, they all have jobs to do.

So as Marion Barry said about another topic, get used to it.
Clean up or die.

Of course, one could argue that expecting some 'moderator' to straighten
things out is impractical and itself a waste of bandwidth. These days of
widespread broadband, cable, DSL and FIOS, the concept of wasting
bandwidth may be obsolete, but those old timers think it was and is
a valuable concept. Tragedy of the commons and all that.

Audiophile are probably more susceptible as a group than many others,
because by definition, audiophiles care about things most people do not
consider important. Most care passionately, often with a religious
fervor. Which obviously opens a door for wise cracks, jokes, and insults.

Some of it may even be justified. We believe that Bose sound systems
sound terrible. We believe that all amplifiers do not sound alike. We
believe that as good as a SqueezeBox sounds, it could sound better.
And we may believe that even the Transporter is not the end of the line,
so we can think of mods and hacks and a Transporter 2.

-- altho I personally believe that speaker positioning and room
treatment are much more important than most of the tweaks that
audiophiles obsess over.

So clean up your act. This means you. Everyone. Period.

--
Pat
http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html


+10 Bump :)

tomjtx
2006-11-25, 23:43
Great post, Pat.

But, can I still make jokes and tell of my visits to the 3rd brane?
Sean Madman is planning some really cool stuff over there at PhatDevices:-)

andy_c
2006-11-25, 23:48
I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring points of view.

Yeah right. You just want everyone who disagrees with your point of view to STFU. What a bunch of disingenuous crap.

opaqueice
2006-11-25, 23:52
I go away for a few days and come back to see... people starting whiny threads on an audiophile forum to complain about off-topic threads?? And then another thread to complain that the first off-topic thread went off-topic??? Has everyone gone crazy? Too much turkey?

If you don't like the forum, go away. No one is making you read it, and I really doubt anyone from SD is going to step in and moderate it. Stop acting like children (and that goes for almost everyone that posted on that other, rather unbelievable thread).

Let's just get back to talking about audio.

tomjtx
2006-11-25, 23:55
I
Let's just get back to talking about audio.



But that would be so boring:-)

Patrick Dixon
2006-11-26, 02:21
I can say posting in this forum feels like trying to have a friendly game in a playground where a handful of self-congratulating bullies have taken over the "turf". I choose not to offer my questions, thoughts or insights much in this forum. Not because I'm insecure in my ability to take care of myself on the playground and not because I am insecure in my beliefs and feelings. I choose not to participate because I simply dont feel it offers me enough benefit for the cost in time or emotional energy I would expend. Very well put.

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 02:37
Yeah right. You just want everyone who disagrees with your point of view to STFU. What a bunch of disingenuous crap.

I agree with Pat, and inherent in what he said is that there is behavior that can make this forum go down the tubes and behavior that will help to sustain it. I suggest the kind of behavior evidenced in the above quote is the former.

When I find myself doing this I have learned it's helpful to realize that driving my negative behavior is usually an assumption of some negative intent on the part of the other person. The above quoted post is such a great example because the assumptions the poster is making about me are so clearly stated. But it happens all the time.

For instance many people assumed that PFloding was putting them down by inferring they were not "audiophiles". And so they attacked in defense. But in earlier conversation P said that English is not his first language, and admitted his ability to get grammer and spelling wrong. I thought it was plausible that P simply got the meaning of audiophile slightly wrong, and that he meant to say something like "tweaker" instead.

I'd like to suggest that one way back to positive behavior would be to assume positive intent on the part of the person you are responding to. It really does work.

adamslim
2006-11-26, 02:53
I'd like to suggest that one way back to positive behavior would be to assume positive intent on the part of the person you are responding to. It really does work.

Good post: this is, I think, one of the main problems. The written-only form of communication misses out such a lot of information, so you need to be especially careful with both what you type, and how you interpret someone else's. Chill out, and assume people are reasonable.

Why not self-moderation: being able to score posts? That way, if enough people score something as a troll post, it gets suppressed for most readers. Slashdot is the best example here.

Adam

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 03:04
I go away for a few days and come back to see... people starting whiny threads on an audiophile forum to complain about off-topic threads?? And then another thread to complain that the first off-topic thread went off-topic??? Has everyone gone crazy? Too much turkey?

If you don't like the forum, go away. No one is making you read it, and I really doubt anyone from SD is going to step in and moderate it. Stop acting like children (and that goes for almost everyone that posted on that other, rather unbelievable thread).

Let's just get back to talking about audio.

I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence. And I agree that enough people acting like children, being emotionally immature, WILL bring this forum down.

As for going away if I dont like the forum. Perhaps I will.

But before simply "going away" I feel it is my responsibility to the community (see top of page left, after "Slim Devices") to try to ensure an important issue did not get drowned in the noise. I took a bit of a risk, to be reaponsible to the community. But I believe that is what community is all about -- if that word is to really have any meaning. If you find that whiny or childish, all I can do is encourage a moment of reflection on your part.

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 03:43
Good post: this is, I think, one of the main problems. The written-only form of communication misses out such a lot of information, so you need to be especially careful with both what you type, and how you interpret someone else's. Chill out, and assume people are reasonable.

Why not self-moderation: being able to score posts? That way, if enough people score something as a troll post, it gets suppressed for most readers. Slashdot is the best example here.

Adam

I agree. Am thinking about the time back in my corporate life when I wrote something in the heat of the moment in an e-mail to a colleague (and everyone on the cc list!) It was early days of email. And my only defense was I really didnt know any better. I think many of us must have a similar memory that makes us shudder.

I grew up in Cleveland with a bunch of working class guys. And ya know, this is a really GREAT idea and I'm shouting over the musical bridge of BORN TO RUN and we've all had 4 OR 5 BEERS, and I preface everything with "YOU A--HOLE..." I mean, I LOVE communicating that way. Still do.

And posting and emailing somehow gets under our radar, seeming less like writing a letter and more like having that "relaxed" conversation for some reason. And ya know, maybe we all just want to get close somehow.

Unfortunately, written communication requires different skills. Wimpy stuff like "sensitivity", "responsibility", "discipline". And man, it chafes me sometimes!!!

I for one would like to try your system for self-moderating. Sounds interesting. I have never seen it operate tho.

cliveb
2006-11-26, 03:53
As Pat, opaqueice, and others have pointed out, moderating this forum would be too much work for SD. Therefore they are left with two options: leave it alone, or close this particular forum.

I believe that closing the Audiophile forum would be disasterous. Audiophile discussions by their very nature are extremely contentious. The same thing happens in all audio forums - hoping that there might be some way to avoid it here is unrealistic. This forum is a well-defined place for flame wars to hang out and stay ring-fenced. If it weren't here, the flame wars would spill over into the General Discussion forum.

Take a look at what happens in the likes of rec.audio.opinion on Usenet, and you'll see that this forum is remarkably civil in comparison. Be thankful that contentious threads descend into wisecracking rather than vicious personal attacks. It's not difficult to avoid the threads that have spiralled out of control.

adamslim
2006-11-26, 04:05
I for one would like to try your system for self-moderating. Sounds interesting. I have never seen it operate tho.

http://slashdot.org/faq/com-mod.shtml#cm600

I especially like the fact that you can't moderate a thread where you are a poster. Nice touch.

Adam

adamslim
2006-11-26, 04:15
Oh and there is a useful guide for improving your karma on Slashdot, which would be well applied here:

10 Tips for Improving Your Karma:

* Post Intelligently: Interesting, insightful, thought provoking comments are rated higher on a fairly consistent basis.

* Post Calmly: Nobody likes a flame war. In fact, more times than not the flamer gets burned much more than their target."Flame Bait" is hit quickly and consistently with "-1" by moderators. As the bumper sticker says... "Don't be a dick."

* If You Can't Be Deep, Be Funny: If you don't have something truly developing to the topic, some humor is welcome. Humor is lacking in our lives and will continue to be promoted. Remember though, what rips your sides out may be completely inane to somebody else. [This won't help you anymore; see above.]

* Post Early: If an article has over a certain number of posts on it already, yours is less likely to be moderated. This is less likely both statistically (there are more to choose from) and due to positioning (as a moderator I have to actually find your post waaay at the end of a long list.)

* Post Often: If you only post once a month you can expect your karma to remain low. Also, lively discussion in an open forum is what makes Slashdot really "Rock the Casbah."

* Stay On Topic: Off topic posts are slapped quickly and consistently with "-1" by moderators.

* Be Original: Avoid being redundant and just repeating what has already been said. Smirk. Yes, being moderated as "redundant" is worth "-1" to your post and your karma. Especially to be avoided are the "what he said" and "me too" posts.

* Read It Before You Post: Does it say what you really want it to say? Check your own spelling and grammar. Occasionally, a perfectly beneficial post is passed over by moderators because of this completely irrelevant-to-content feature. This is also a good approach to checking yourself for what you're really saying. Can't tell you the number of times I've stopped myself from saying the opposite of what I meant by checking my own spelling and grammar.

* Log In As a Registered User: I know, this sounds obvious but, "Anonymous Coward" does not have a karma rating. You can't reap the perceived benefits of your own accidental brilliance if you post anonymously. Have pride in your work and take credit for it.

* Read Slashdot Regularly: You can't possibly contribute to the discussion if you're not in the room. Come to the party and play.

peejay
2006-11-26, 04:25
As a music listener of some 30 years, in all honesty it wasn't until recently that I did an A-B test of anything. Here's my story in defence of people who hear a difference and care about it.
Recently a friend of mine from the U.K. who previously bought audio equipment at about the same time as myself suggested that we look around for new kit that could also cater for some home theatre requirements. He was already sold on amplifier brand 'A', and I did some research and liked brand 'B'. Both cost about the same with similar features and both catered for the audio enthusiast. When we finally did a 'shoot out' at a local Hi-Fi dealer, we didn't quite believe our ears. Same set of Krix speakers (I'm naming names here 'cause we weren't shopping for speakers) and source (high end Denon CD player, again named as the source we had in mind was an SB3), and when swithing between the 2 amps which the guy in the shop kindly set up for us, the difference in sound was quite dramatic(I have a witness, if you would also like his testimony). Not expected at all, I can tell you. What that did highlight was that 2 amplifiers of similar specificaitons can influence the soundstage in different ways quite dramatically. So, while I don't believe my ears are anything special, and also that I don't spend a lot on audio equipment, this experience for me exonerated the lengths some poeple go to achieving a sound they're happy with. Live on, the audiophile.....

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 07:28
If I understand what is meant here by "self moderation" then it seems to be a form of censorship. And not self-censorship
How easy would it be to rally a few others to low score a poster you dont agree with?
IMO any form of censorship is bad, far worse than a flame war or the demise of this forum.
BTW, I dont think there is a danger of this forum dying. That smacks of fear mongering in order to control the populace. Isn't that why the Republicans lost the last election? And I don't think that's OT, BTW.

The fact is, we are not employees in a corporation that are expected to behave in a business like manner. This is down time, hobby time.
Do you really want to change that with more rules?

I have been "bloodied" by flames, overeacted(as I believe PF did) and then gotten over it. It's not that hard to do.

I certainly think it's a good idea to self-reflect before posting, to chill a bit if you are upset etc.
But this is true self moderating, not being scored by others, THAT would be the true disaster for this forum , IMHO

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 07:39
Yeah right. You just want everyone who disagrees with your point of view to STFU. What a bunch of disingenuous crap.

I fully defend Andy's right to say this. I understand his reaction. And I think his post is a valuable addition to this thread. (and , no, I dont know him)


A, your posts do seem to support some form of censorship and other posters have a right to let you know they feel you are being disingenous.

If you are not, then Andy's post gives you an opportunity to clarify.
However, your clarification does seem to favor censorship and furthers my impression that you are being disingenous.

I could be wrong, but it appears to me that you are the one that is not "playing fair"
under the guise of reasonablenes.

Again, I could be mistaken.

totoro
2006-11-26, 08:19
I agree with Pat, and inherent in what he said is that there is behavior that can make this forum go down the tubes and behavior that will help to sustain it. I suggest the kind of behavior evidenced in the above quote is the former.

When I find myself doing this I have learned it's helpful to realize that driving my negative behavior is usually an assumption of some negative intent on the part of the other person. The above quoted post is such a great example because the assumptions the poster is making about me are so clearly stated. But it happens all the time.

For instance many people assumed that PFloding was putting them down by inferring they were not "audiophiles". And so they attacked in defense. But in earlier conversation P said that English is not his first language, and admitted his ability to get grammer and spelling wrong. I thought it was plausible that P simply got the meaning of audiophile slightly wrong, and that he meant to say something like "tweaker" instead.

I'd like to suggest that one way back to positive behavior would be to assume positive intent on the part of the person you are responding to. It really does work.

Hmmm, I disagree with you on this one: rudeness is rudeness, and it wasn't just this particular word, in my experience, but a whole raft of behaviors, which I actually listed on another thread. You can't be incivil with people and expect civility back. It's particularly odious if you actually squeal and act as if you've been savagely attacked when someone responds to your own rudeness in kind (I should point out that I'm using PF as my example here, not you).

My disagreement with you lies in my perception that you seem to desire protection for this kind of behavior for certain people, which IMHO doesn't deserve protection at all. I don't want some animals to be more equal than others.

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 09:26
Hmmm, I disagree with you on this one: rudeness is rudeness, and it wasn't just this particular word, in my experience, but a whole raft of behaviors, which I actually listed on another thread. You can't be incivil with people and expect civility back. It's particularly odious if you actually squeal and act as if you've been savagely attacked when someone responds to your own rudeness in kind (I should point out that I'm using PF as my example here, not you).

My disagreement with you lies in my perception that you seem to desire protection for this kind of behavior for certain people, which IMHO doesn't deserve protection at all. I don't want some animals to be more equal than others.

Great post, totoro

chinablues
2006-11-26, 09:27
There is probably no more rich and wonderful sound for the true audiophile than the sound of his own voice (joke). But just as no two amplifiers are the same (apparently), so too are no two voices or opinions the same either. You guys have far far too sensitive ears and equally, far far too thin skin. The adjectives, the delicate prose and the carefully crafted sentence clearly goes hand in glove with someone with such phenomenal sensitivity in the aural senses. Sometimes it's sad that these skills find themselves spilling over to invective. Many times I have been involved in emails (both as sender and receiver) which initially offended the receiver when the sender had no such intention. In a business environment, this 'calms down' pretty quickly, but here in the anonimity of internet postings, folks just respond by 'raising the ante'. The postings involving PF, I felt had equal venom on both sides.

dan

adamslim
2006-11-26, 09:38
Hmmm, I disagree with you on this one: rudeness is rudeness, and it wasn't just this particular word, in my experience, but a whole raft of behaviors, which I actually listed on another thread. You can't be incivil with people and expect civility back. It's particularly odious if you actually squeal and act as if you've been savagely attacked when someone responds to your own rudeness in kind (I should point out that I'm using PF as my example here, not you).

My disagreement with you lies in my perception that you seem to desire protection for this kind of behavior for certain people, which IMHO doesn't deserve protection at all. I don't want some animals to be more equal than others.

Sorry, but I disagree and think this is a stupid attitude. atkinsonrr's post was balanced and well-reasoned, but you seem to think that one person's thoughtlessness is a good reason for you to be offensive, and that's a good way to get an unpleasant forum, which this is becoming.

If someone is incivil (sic), please take the very good opportunity to shut up and let their stupidity be clear for all others to see. Rising to the bait is the best way to descend to their level.

Adam

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 09:42
The postings involving PF, I felt had equal venom on both sides.

dan[/QUOTE]


Equal venom on both sides?!!!!!!! How dare you, you %#%%!$$&^((&(*_)()(*&^&*^%$^$##.
Why dont you move to Beijing and get out of our hair?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OOPS.............you are in Beijing.............my bad...............I take it all back..........

DISCLAIMER: the above is obviously a poor, sophmoric and moronic attempt at humor meant to offend no one. The poster is obviously deranged and should be completely ignored or, better still, moderated to oblivion:-)
Furthermore the poster absolutely loves Beijing and hopes his son goes to university there.

totoro
2006-11-26, 10:04
Sorry, but I disagree and think this is a stupid attitude. atkinsonrr's post was balanced and well-reasoned, but you seem to think that one person's thoughtlessness is a good reason for you to be offensive, and that's a good way to get an unpleasant forum, which this is becoming.

If someone is incivil (sic), please take the very good opportunity to shut up and let their stupidity be clear for all others to see. Rising to the bait is the best way to descend to their level.

Adam

Did I actually say anything offensive in that post? What was it?
Can you point to anything specific? I doubt it. You on the other hand, were actually rude, by any standards ("stupid attitude", (sic)). You might want to apply your own reasoning to yourself.

P Floding's behavior was germane to the conversation, since he was mentioned in the initial post (and, in fact, in the post to which I was replying).

The comment about the bait is correct (with caveats). I admitted so myself in that other thread. Your tone, on the other hand, was gratuitously nasty, and directly contradicts what you are saying.

Also, incivil is an actual word:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incivil

in‧civ‧il /ɪnˈsɪvəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-siv-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, adjective

—Synonyms 1. rudeness, boorishness, uncouthness. 2. discourtesy.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)

You should look things like that up before making attacks based on them.

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 10:22
Sorry, but I disagree and think this is a stupid attitude. atkinsonrr's post was balanced and well-reasoned, but you seem to think that one person's thoughtlessness is a good reason for you to be offensive, and that's a good way to get an unpleasant forum, which this is becoming.

If someone is incivil (sic), please take the very good opportunity to shut up and let their stupidity be clear for all others to see. Rising to the bait is the best way to descend to their level.

Adam

Adam, your post does appear to me to be a bit self contradictory.

opaqueice
2006-11-26, 10:48
I wonder whether part of the problem here might be that many of the posters on this forum don't have a lot of experience with internet forums. Personally I grew up occasionally reading usenet groups, talk.origins (a usenet group about evolution) for example, and compared to that this forum is incredibly mild and well-behaved. It's simply the nature of the internet that dicussions get heated - it's an anonymous forum, and many of the usual social mores etc. don't apply with much force. Furthermore irony and humor don't come across very well at all and often get misinterpreted.

A slashdot style moderation system is unlikely to work here, and is not necessary. There are too few posts and too few participants. What's needed if anything is for everyone to take this a little less seriously, relax a bit, and develop a thicker skin.

totoro
2006-11-26, 12:08
I personally don't even mind the rudeness, as long as people understand that it will be repaid in kind, and don't freak out over it. Of course, YMMV, and almost everyone gets impatient/snappish sometimes (I'd bet Adam was irritated with me over the audiophilia as religion thread, which is understandable).

JJZolx
2006-11-26, 12:14
I think the only people who would keep coming back to such a playground are those that feel they must prove something to the bullies. Indeed, for this reason, it seems that without intervention, this forum is fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

Very well said. It's virtually impossible to run an audiophile forum without moderation. There will always be the bullies with little to say that argue against those far more knowledgeable. The DBT crowd is especially noisome around here.

highdudgeon
2006-11-26, 12:24
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? When we start making judgements about other people based on their points of view? Sure, the "objectivist" -- I certainly lean in that direction and absolutely believe in the us double-blind tests -- can get loud; however, the "subjectivist" crowd -- and I'm a bit of that, too, liking as I do vintage tube amps -- can get equally defensive and rude. This very post is an invitation to anger and could be construed as insulting.

The thing is, this community is actually quite small. Look at the threads -- how many new faces do you see? Perhaps it would be a a good idea to start a thread that goes like this:

1. I am so-and-so (moniker, real name, initials, whatever); this is how long I've been into the hobby; this is some of my stuff; this is how I came to choose it; this is my basic philosophy about audio.

2. No one -- NO ONE -- replies to that post in a negative way, no matter how much you disagree with that individual.

The point would be to have general introduction session, rather than getting to know each other by way of exchanged barbs. Everyone would be invited to write about themselves without potentially insulting reference (see above) to other people.

Any, this is just an idea to clear the air. How many people are involved in these threads? A dozen? Twenty, at most? That's not a lot of us and I reckon that, in person, we would be much more polite. Therefore, getting to know each other in a more personal way could be helpful.


Very well said. It's virtually impossible to run an audiophile forum without moderation. There will always be the bullies with little to say that argue against those far more knowledgeable. The DBT crowd is especially noisome around here.

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 12:38
Very well said. It's virtually impossible to run an audiophile forum without moderation. There will always be the bullies with little to say that argue against those far more knowledgeable. The DBT crowd is especially noisome around here.

Huh?????? I've seen few forums that are moderated. Look at some of the arguments on the stereophile forums or audio circle.The Minimal moderaton on the SD forums is de facto proof that they work, it seems to me.

And whose to say who is "far more knowledgeable". You? If you are God let me know, because as an agnostic I would love to get off the fence:-)

Also, I dont see any bullies on the forum, just people disagreeing in many different ways which is what makes this forum interesting and entertaining for me. If this hobby and it's concommittent discussions cant have a little heat and humor it would be a bit boring.

It seems to me you are labeling as bullies people with whom you disagree and whose method of communication you dont like. Again, were you appointed to that job or is it divine proclamation?

I am more subjectivists than objectivist. I think it's quite plausible there are things we cant yet measure. I don't think DBT is the end all of methods to determine quality gear but I dont dismiss DBT entirely either.

Why dont we all just suck it up. If someone offends you let them know. If they are rude either ignore them or be rude back . That should be OUR choice, not some single or group "moderator"

Oh, and if you dont agree with me I will banish you to the 3rd brane where the flames are real. ( you think we got it bad in this universe)

JJZolx
2006-11-26, 12:47
It seems to me you are labeling as bullies people with whom you disagree and whose method of communication you dont like. Again, were you appointed to that job or is it divine proclamation?
No, not people I disagree with. I disagree with a lot of the opinions expressed here, but I don't want those opinions silenced. What I take objection to are the inflammatory posts that are thrown up just to raise the hackles of someone else, and the personal attacks that are all too common in this forum.

The base level of moderation, that you'll see on nearly any forum, is to simply lock a thread that gets too contentious. Moderation can, and IMO probably should go beyond that, to censuring or even banning the troublemakers and the repeat offenders.

highdudgeon
2006-11-26, 12:54
Actually, they do censure and ban troublemakers. Notice the absence of Mauidan.

Basically, I agree with you. Some oversight is a good thing. In these forums, I would say that more moderation would be a good thing.


No, not people I disagree with. I disagree with a lot of the opinions expressed here, but I don't want those opinions silenced. What I take objection to are the inflammatory posts that are thrown up just to raise the hackles of someone else, and the personal attacks that are all too common in this forum.

The base level of moderation, that you'll see on nearly any forum, is to simply lock a thread that gets too contentious. Moderation can, and IMO probably should go beyond that, to censuring or even banning the troublemakers and the repeat offenders.

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 13:04
No, not people I disagree with. I disagree with a lot of the opinions expressed here, but I don't want those opinions silenced. What I take objection to are the inflammatory posts that are thrown up just to raise the hackles of someone else, and the personal attacks that are all too common in this forum.

The base level of moderation, that you'll see on nearly any forum, is to simply lock a thread that gets too contentious. Moderation can, and IMO probably should go beyond that, to censuring or even banning the troublemakers and the repeat offenders.

But Jim, by that definition you could be banned. Your last post could be interpreted as inflammatory to the DBT crowd and the humorist crowd. As was your statement that others are "far more knowledgeable".

You could be interpreted as a troublemaker in some contexts.

It seems to me what you are proposing would do far more to silence opinions than the type of posting you dont like.
You are advocating censorship and IMO that would be the death of this forum.

Are you in favor of the Patriot Act also:-)

totoro
2006-11-26, 13:10
No, not people I disagree with. I disagree with a lot of the opinions expressed here, but I don't want those opinions silenced. What I take objection to are the inflammatory posts that are thrown up just to raise the hackles of someone else, and the personal attacks that are all too common in this forum.

The base level of moderation, that you'll see on nearly any forum, is to simply lock a thread that gets too contentious. Moderation can, and IMO probably should go beyond that, to censuring or even banning the troublemakers and the repeat offenders.

The problem is that, in the edge cases, people can honestly disagree which posts are of that ilk and whether they were simply irritated reactions to a provocation.

That said, there are definite cases (such as mauidan), where it's possible to say "X is simply a troll".

As far as the DBT/objectivist crowd doing all the bullying, there is plenty of blame to go around, and this statement is disingenuous at best.

Splitting some threads/subthreads off into a garbage can or fight club wouldn't be unreasonable. But I really doubt that slim devices can or should spend the resources on this.

This thread and the one it's a response to seem to me to mostly be about one faction demanding carte blanche while pretending to be simply innocent victims of their opponents. This is entirely unreasonable, and, frankly, given my very recent experience, deserved a pretty harsh response.

tyler_durden
2006-11-26, 13:11
The DBT crowd is especially noisome around here.

I think this goes hand-in-hand with the changing political climate in the US. Now that the former ruling party have been shown to be the liars and schemers they are, a new renaissance of scientific thought is poised for take-off. So called "intelligent design" has been shown to be the crock-of-poo that it is. I would expect many of the touchy-feely-it's-my-feelings-that-matter-anti-DBT types that have been flooding usenet and internet forums to go into hiding or wake up to the new (old) reality, the REAL reality.

All the prayer (or whatever you prefer to call wishful thinking or magic spells) in the world never resulted in the materialization of a CD or transmutation of a rock into A CD player. These and all other products you use and the machines that make them are the result of applied science and engineering, the sum of billions of man-hours of study, thought, and effort. DBT is a product of science and the result of psychological studies of human behavior and it works, even if many audiophools think it doesn't apply to them, even as they have benefitted from it.

What prayer has resulted in are endless wars, suicide bombers, high rates of VD, infant mortality, teen pregnancy, and violent crime, to name a few. The only way to make things better is to face reality, analyze the problems, and attack them. History has shown that praying for them to go away doesn't work.

Expecting people who have a firm grasp on reality to go away or keep quiet as the audiophool insults their hard work, intelligence, and contributions to society is unreasonable to say the least. Expecting moderators to quash dissenting opinions that are based on logic, reason, and scientific method is the audiophool equivalent of "rapture" in which the moderator will transport the chosen audiophools directly to audiophool heaven where they will never have to hear a differing opinion for all eternity.

Granted, audiophoolishness is a small problem compared to the others, but every contribution to sanity is valuable. The converted audiophool may start to think rationally about other areas of life as well as audio (or is this just wishful thinking?). Even if the audiophool never comes to see the error in his ways, some poor noob who reads the arguments may be helped by seeing some a reasonable presentation that refutes the audiophool's nonsense.

TD

ceejay
2006-11-26, 14:16
Splitting some threads/subthreads off into a garbage can or fight club wouldn't be unreasonable.



Funny, I thought that's what this entire forum is for?

Ceejay

totoro
2006-11-26, 14:22
Funny, I thought that's what this entire forum is for?

Ceejay

OK, you got me :).

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 17:56
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? When we start making judgements about other people based on their points of view? Sure, the "objectivist" -- I certainly lean in that direction and absolutely believe in the us double-blind tests -- can get loud; however, the "subjectivist" crowd -- and I'm a bit of that, too, liking as I do vintage tube amps -- can get equally defensive and rude. This very post is an invitation to anger and could be construed as insulting.

The thing is, this community is actually quite small. Look at the threads -- how many new faces do you see? Perhaps it would be a a good idea to start a thread that goes like this:

1. I am so-and-so (moniker, real name, initials, whatever); this is how long I've been into the hobby; this is some of my stuff; this is how I came to choose it; this is my basic philosophy about audio.

2. No one -- NO ONE -- replies to that post in a negative way, no matter how much you disagree with that individual.

The point would be to have general introduction session, rather than getting to know each other by way of exchanged barbs. Everyone would be invited to write about themselves without potentially insulting reference (see above) to other people.

Any, this is just an idea to clear the air. How many people are involved in these threads? A dozen? Twenty, at most? That's not a lot of us and I reckon that, in person, we would be much more polite. Therefore, getting to know each other in a more personal way could be helpful.

I think this is a great idea. I too wonder how much rude or inflammatory behavior that happens in forums like this would continue if folks actually knew each other, or were sitting face to face.

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 18:06
I think this is a great idea. I too wonder how much rude or inflammatory behavior that happens in forums like this would continue if folks actually knew each other, or were sitting face to face.

Would this be analogous to a 12 steppe program?
Would it be an attenuater with .5 RDB steps (rudeness decibels)?

I like the idea, as long as I can make jokes. :-)

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 18:28
Hmmm, I disagree with you on this one: rudeness is rudeness, and it wasn't just this particular word, in my experience, but a whole raft of behaviors, which I actually listed on another thread. You can't be incivil with people and expect civility back. It's particularly odious if you actually squeal and act as if you've been savagely attacked when someone responds to your own rudeness in kind (I should point out that I'm using PF as my example here, not you).

My disagreement with you lies in my perception that you seem to desire protection for this kind of behavior for certain people, which IMHO doesn't deserve protection at all. I don't want some animals to be more equal than others.

I agree rudeness is rudeness. Absolutely right. And you are right it was not just the use of the work "Audiophile". I only intended to use that one example as an example of how assumptions about intent can get any of us off track.

And, I dont desire protection for only one side in this wonderful ongoing debate which is a very rich part of this hobby we share. (Yes, "hobby", and the less similarity it has with religion the better). I would lose alot if that were to happen. We all would. Like (I think) most people here, I find myself somewhere in the middle in the subjectivist / objectivist question. But that is easy to say, and maybe disbelieved.

So let me try to say more clearly. When someone argues his pet rock makes his stereo sound more [insert adjective] I am simply bemused and maybe a bit curious as to why he would believe that. When someone argues there's no more left to learn or discuss because something like a THD measurement or DBT is the "end of the line" I feel the same way. However, if either said or inferred that I was stupid for seeing the world differently than they do, I would be angry.

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 18:37
Would this be analogous to a 12 steppe program?
Would it be an attenuater with .5 RDB steps (rudeness decibels)?

I like the idea, as long as I can make jokes. :-)

"Hi... ah... er... I... I-I'm Rob and I-I'm an Audiophile"

Mass response: "Hi, Rob!"

totoro
2006-11-26, 18:56
I agree rudeness is rudeness. Absolutely right. And you are right it was not just the use of the work "Audiophile". I only intended to use that one example as an example of how assumptions about intent can get any of us off track.

And, I dont desire protection for only one side in this wonderful ongoing debate which is a very rich part of this hobby we share. (Yes, "hobby", and the less similarity it has with religion the better). I would lose alot if that were to happen. We all would. Like (I think) most people here, I find myself somewhere in the middle in the subjectivist / objectivist question. But that is easy to say, and maybe disbelieved.

So let me try to say more clearly. When someone argues his pet rock makes his stereo sound more [insert adjective] I am simply bemused and maybe a bit curious as to why he would believe that. When someone argues there's no more left to learn or discuss because something like a THD measurement or DBT is the "end of the line" I feel the same way. However, if either said or inferred that I was stupid for seeing the world differently than they do, I would be angry.

Fair enough. I tried to be careful about not claiming as _fact_ that you were seeking protection for only one side. :)

It just seemed that way to me from the example you picked, I guess.

I think (from my own experience) that some of the "subjectivists" tend to reduce the position of some "objectivists" to caricatures, which bear little relation to the positions actually expressed. Having someone persistently do this to you over a long thread will make you cranky unless you have a lot more patience than I do. :)

I'm sure it happens the other way around, but I've never experienced that part directly (except perhaps as a perpetrator).

highdudgeon
2006-11-26, 19:31
Cool -- let's do it! What's a good thread name? "Introductions"? Something more pithy? "12 steps to audiophiliac honesty"?


I think this is a great idea. I too wonder how much rude or inflammatory behavior that happens in forums like this would continue if folks actually knew each other, or were sitting face to face.

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 19:32
Fair enough. I tried to be careful about not claiming as _fact_ that you were seeking protection for only one side. :)

It just seemed that way to me from the example you picked, I guess.

I think (from my own experience) that some of the "subjectivists" tend to reduce the position of some "objectivists" to caricatures, which bear little relation to the positions actually expressed. Having someone persistently do this to you over a long thread will make you cranky unless you have a lot more patience than I do. :)

I'm sure it happens the other way around, but I've never experienced that part directly (except perhaps as a perpetrator).

I too have seen and kinda marveled at this caricature thing in many of the "more heat than light" threads. Its like at some point in the thread all the posters could just walk away and there would just be two cardboard cutouts standing there, lobbing pre-scripted repetitive accusations at each other. And the thread (not so) merrily goes on... and on...

Its the same way that propaganda works so well, I guess. Our brains must be scripted for it. And that must be why it takes actual discipline to avoid falling into.

Living here in China and growing up in the depths of the cold war, I confront this on a very personal level. Or have to confront it in older chinese that seem still scripted from the Cultural Revolution, or view all americans as "the same as" G.W.Bush.

I actually have friends in the US that believe the Chinese hate women and routinely kill their girl babies. Some that believe female fetuses are routinely sold in street stalls in Beijing as delicasies. I only wish they could see the overt love, pride and devotion chinese friends of mine heap on their daughters.

totoro
2006-11-26, 19:44
Would this be analogous to a 12 steppe program?
Would it be an attenuater with .5 RDB steps (rudeness decibels)?

I like the idea, as long as I can make jokes. :-)

12 steppes? can I be Genghis? :)

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 19:53
Cool -- let's do it! What's a good thread name? "Introductions"? Something more pithy? "12 steps to audiophiliac honesty"?

There must be a biblical thing that works here (oh no, religion again...). There must be some passage in the Koran or Bible that says something like "Reveal thyself so that we might speak unto you as a brother, and fellow lover of God..."

But also I think you might suggest (suggest -- no censorship!) a format for people to start with, just so we get the important info from everyone.

Maybe we could get it put into a "stickie"?

Dont mean we should overwork this, tho. Shouldnt noodle it to death. Lets just do it. At least if will have two takers!

atkinsonrr
2006-11-26, 20:06
12 steppes? can I be Genghis? :)

SEE!! SEE!!
First a GANG and now a HORDE.

I figure we should give everyone on the Audiophile forum a "season pass" on spelling. Esp. as they might not be native in English.

totoro
2006-11-26, 20:12
SEE!! SEE!!
First a GANG and now a HORDE.

I figure we should give everyone on the Audiophile forum a "season pass" on spelling. Esp. as they might not be native in English.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I was just being silly, not trying to be mean (a pun that bad has to be worse than a spelling mistake).

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 22:20
SEE!! SEE!!
First a GANG and now a HORDE.

I figure we should give everyone on the Audiophile forum a "season pass" on spelling. Esp. as they might not be native in English.

uh pas on spilling? how tare you, sich infrontery

tomjtx
2006-11-26, 22:22
we have to make sure the audiophile is centered in front of us in an equilateral triangle so that our greeting is in stereo

highdudgeon
2006-11-27, 00:30
As a sticky -- that's a really good idea. We'd need to ask the powers-that-be at Slim to make it a sticky.


There must be a biblical thing that works here (oh no, religion again...). There must be some passage in the Koran or Bible that says something like "Reveal thyself so that we might speak unto you as a brother, and fellow lover of God..."

But also I think you might suggest (suggest -- no censorship!) a format for people to start with, just so we get the important info from everyone.

Maybe we could get it put into a "stickie"?

Dont mean we should overwork this, tho. Shouldnt noodle it to death. Lets just do it. At least if will have two takers!

geraint smith
2006-11-27, 02:22
I like the idea, as long as I can make jokes. :-)[/QUOTE]

Back to the drawing board, then......although they did always say that the 12 step could work miracles.......

(I know, I know! Cheap shot. Just couldn't resist!)

chinablues
2006-11-27, 08:28
A classic cartoon I saw many years ago had Ghengis Khan sitting slouched over a pile of rugs outside his tent. Looking kind of rough after a hard night and in no fit shape to do any more raping looting or pillaging. Facing him was a whole bunch of Mongols, spears and bows at the ready with the Sergeant-at-Arms entreating Ghengis to get on his feet. "Oh, come on Ghengis, we just need one more to make a horde"

atkinsonrr
2006-11-27, 10:34
we have to make sure the audiophile is centered in front of us in an equilateral triangle so that our greeting is in stereo

And the objectivists and subjectivists,
We'd all be there
But oh the sound--it'd be so dynamic!
It would make us so electrostatic!
That none of us would care!

P Floding
2006-11-27, 17:30
A while ago, P.Floding started a thread called something like "Moderator where are you?". In it, he makes the following point:
"The biggest problem is the SNR (signal-noise ratio). It is really easy to do wisecracking and post the 50th variation on the same old joke and get a number of your buddies to chime in with their own variations. Soon you have 10 postings like that for every one serious posting. How is anyone going to take the time to read through all this to extract any useful information?
On top of that, when all the wisecracking has a theme that says that audiophiles are idiots (more or less), how friendly will that feel for anyone coming here with their questions?"

Unfortunately, the thread in which P posted the above went down the drain in exactly the same way that P was pointing out. As a result, I feel the need to start this thread just to say I agree with P on the problem and on the effect.

I cannot say what the answer is, and I am not proposing censoring points of view.

I can say posting in this forum feels like trying to have a friendly game in a playground where a handful of self-congratulating bullies have taken over the "turf". I choose not to offer my questions, thoughts or insights much in this forum. Not because I'm insecure in my ability to take care of myself on the playground and not because I am insecure in my beliefs and feelings. I choose not to participate because I simply dont feel it offers me enough benefit for the cost in time or emotional energy I would expend.

I think the only people who would keep coming back to such a playground are those that feel they must prove something to the bullies. Indeed, for this reason, it seems that without intervention, this forum is fated to a downward spiral into a lot of heat and very little light.

The main problem is really that a few select people have taken upon themselves to define what is acceptable thinking, and what is "stupid" -hence bullying anyone who is "stupid" enough to have idéas that are not confirmant enough for this crowd.

This is just narrowminded mob behaviour, no matter what pretty alternative label is put on it ("a bit of a laugh", "humor", etc).

I really don't see this changing as these people see it as both their right and perhaps almost duty to police the forum using mob behaviour. They shouldn't fool themselves that they promote variation here, though. I don't think anyone of these people actually write under their own names, BTW.

I decided not to contribute any more as I don't feel the general discussion climate here works for an in-depth exchange of ideas. There are just too many people who have to try to prove points all the time -almost regardless of the relevance of these points. (ABX, anyone?)

So, so long, and thank you for the fish!

tomjtx
2006-11-27, 23:06
The main problem is really that a few select people have taken upon themselves to define what is acceptable thinking, and what is "stupid" -hence bullying anyone who is "stupid" enough to have idéas that are not confirmant enough for this crowd.

This is just narrowminded mob behaviour, no matter what pretty alternative label is put on it ("a bit of a laugh", "humor", etc).

I really don't see this changing as these people see it as both their right and perhaps almost duty to police the forum using mob behaviour. They shouldn't fool themselves that they promote variation here, though. I don't think anyone of these people actually write under their own names, BTW.

I decided not to contribute any more as I don't feel the general discussion climate here works for an in-depth exchange of ideas. There are just too many people who have to try to prove points all the time -almost regardless of the relevance of these points. (ABX, anyone?)

So, so long, and thank you for the fish!

you are guilty of all the above, P. Your lack of self perception and self reflection
is amazing.

opaqueice
2006-11-27, 23:17
T
So, so long, and thank you for the fish!

This is (at least) the second time you've announced your permanent departure from this forum... let's see how long this one lasts.

tomjtx
2006-11-27, 23:27
This is (at least) the second time you've announced your permanent departure from this forum... let's see how long this one lasts.


maybe P. will leave for a long time. I kinda hate to say that, I really think all should be able to say what they want but his last post seems so anachronistic,really.
I mean, it seems most everyone has settled down, some light hearted humor, a serious proposal about getting to know each others systems and philosophies , no flames, etc.

What's to complain about?

P Floding
2006-11-28, 04:56
maybe P. will leave for a long time. I kinda hate to say that, I really think all should be able to say what they want but his last post seems so anachronistic,really.
I mean, it seems most everyone has settled down, some light hearted humor, a serious proposal about getting to know each others systems and philosophies , no flames, etc.

What's to complain about?

Unlike you I sure as hell don't have time to read all postings here. I read the initial one, and answered that. I hope that explains things for you? I don't think this forum works exactly because you and others demand everyone to be "in tune". So when you are all a happy, jolly little mob, where you have all figured out who is boss over whom, you get all upset when someone ignores your "understanding" or isn't fully "in tune" (wrong kind of humor, wrong spelling, stupid ideas -you name it).

And please stop that "i think people should be able to say what they think, but..". It's so pathetic.

jonheal
2006-11-28, 05:34
Really folks, I think several of you need to just let go. Clearly, no one's going to get the "last word" in, and at this point, all you're doing is pouring salt into wounds and contributing to the build up of your own stomach acid.

We're all imperfect creatures. We all have quirks and annoying traits. And generally, those traites we find most annoying in others are those that we ourselves possess.

Why don't we draw a line in the sand and move forward on a positive note. Frankly, if everyone turned the other cheek a little more often instead of sniping back, the world would be a hell of a lot more pleasant to live in.

Forums don't need moderators so much as people need to moderate themselves.

Here are some of my annoying traits:
- I interrupt people when they're talking
- I don't listen well
- I often don't give people the benefit of the doubt
- I'm often negative
- I'm selfish

tomjtx
2006-11-28, 06:52
Unlike you I sure as hell don't have time to read all postings here. I read the initial one, and answered that. I hope that explains things for you? I don't think this forum works exactly because you and others demand everyone to be "in tune". So when you are all a happy, jolly little mob, where you have all figured out who is boss over whom, you get all upset when someone ignores your "understanding" or isn't fully "in tune" (wrong kind of humor, wrong spelling, stupid ideas -you name it).

And please stop that "i think people should be able to say what they think, but..". It's so pathetic.

It's interesting that you keep putting me in the same camp as the objectivists, P.

That would be an incorrect categorization. I followed your tweaks with interest, not ridicule or criticism on the tact thread. I have only ridiculed your call for censorship.
BTW I misspell often and english is my 1st language. It's easy to make a mistake when your in a hurry. I must have missed the post where someone criticized your spelling. But dont you think your being a bit thin skinned?

After all, people should be able to say what they think, dont you agree?

ModelCitizen
2006-11-28, 10:24
Here are some of my annoying traits:
- I interrupt people when they're talking
- I don't listen well
- I often don't give people the benefit of the doubt
- I'm often negative
- I'm selfish
Yup, I'll second that.
MC

atkinsonrr
2006-11-28, 22:23
Really folks, I think several of you need to just let go. Clearly, no one's going to get the "last word" in, and at this point, all you're doing is pouring salt into wounds and contributing to the build up of your own stomach acid.

We're all imperfect creatures. We all have quirks and annoying traits. And generally, those traites we find most annoying in others are those that we ourselves possess.

Why don't we draw a line in the sand and move forward on a positive note. Frankly, if everyone turned the other cheek a little more often instead of sniping back, the world would be a hell of a lot more pleasant to live in.

Forums don't need moderators so much as people need to moderate themselves.

Here are some of my annoying traits:
- I interrupt people when they're talking
- I don't listen well
- I often don't give people the benefit of the doubt
- I'm often negative
- I'm selfish

Even tho repetitive I have to say this is right on. Heck I'll even admit to having the same annoying traits plus some we wont go into here... :=) Thanks Jon

Greg Erskine
2006-11-28, 22:34
I must be the only perfect one here. hehehe

dwc
2006-11-29, 14:59
Here are some of my annoying traits:
- I interrupt people when they're talking
- I don't listen well
- I often don't give people the benefit of the doubt
- I'm often negative
- I'm selfish

I hear you're also lactose intolerant and like milkshakes.

(edit: ok, so that's actually me.)

highdudgeon
2006-11-29, 15:01
I thought you were going away?


Unlike you I sure as hell don't have time to read all postings here. I read the initial one, and answered that. I hope that explains things for you? I don't think this forum works exactly because you and others demand everyone to be "in tune". So when you are all a happy, jolly little mob, where you have all figured out who is boss over whom, you get all upset when someone ignores your "understanding" or isn't fully "in tune" (wrong kind of humor, wrong spelling, stupid ideas -you name it).

And please stop that "i think people should be able to say what they think, but..". It's so pathetic.